Davis versus Bettis for HOF

[NWebster]

One argument that will be posited on Bettis is mitigation for his low yards per attempt. It will be presented that his ypa between the twenties was 4.5, whereas his overall is 3.9. The suggestion is that his YPA is low because he ran a lot in the red zone.

However, I hope it's not just accepted without context, like the Floyd Little rarely lost yards thing in which there was no comparison made. I mean, didn't all running backs' YPA go down in the red zone? Or even coming out of the opponent's red zone?

If Jim Brown was 5.2 overall, what was his YPA between the 20s?

I expect this will be something that will put Bettis over the top . . . no guarantee, but he was in Final 10 last year ,. . . And depending on how many first ballot guys there are is reasonable to expect those in the final 10 will move up.

Possibly my single biggest pet peeve - stats absent context. Do we actually have proof that Bettis ran more inside the 20's than Brown??

Was that actually used????

I'm good with him in . . . to me this is more about Davis than Bettis . . . and Sharpe, and Gradishar, and Shofner . . . .

I'll repeat what I've said before, why is Darrell Green in? Was he ever the best CB in the NFL during his career? Was his peak that high? He was a very good corner for a long time who had this cool "fastest guy" thing going on, feels very much like the big-back thing.

[JohnTurney]

One argument that will be posited on Bettis is mitigation for his low yards per attempt. It will be presented that his ypa between the twenties was 4.5, whereas his overall is 3.9. The suggestion is that his YPA is low because he ran a lot in the red zone.

However, I hope it's not just accepted without context, like the Floyd Little rarely lost yards thing in which there was no comparison made. I mean, didn't all running backs' YPA go down in the red zone? Or even coming out of the opponent's red zone?

If Jim Brown was 5.2 overall, what was his YPA between the 20s?

I expect this will be something that will put Bettis over the top . . . no guarantee, but he was in Final 10 last year ,. . . And depending on how many first ballot guys there are is reasonable to expect those in the final 10 will move up.

Possibly my single biggest pet peeve - stats absent context. Do we actually have proof that Bettis ran more inside the 20's than Brown??

Was that actually used????

I'm good with him in . . . to me this is more about Davis than Bettis . . . and Sharpe, and Gradishar, and Shofner . . . .

I'll repeat what I've said before, why is Darrell Green in? Was he ever the best CB in the NFL during his career? Was his peak that high? He was a very good corner for a long time who had this cool "fastest guy" thing going on, feels very much like the big-back thing.

It was used, and without context.

[JohnTurney]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/audio-on- ... -and-dave/

2/1/15 Sports Huddle with Sid and Dave: 11 AM Hour
February 2, 2015
Augsburg athletic director Jeff Swenson takes a few minutes to join the program. Then, it's all about your phone calls

click on the 11 am hour, towards the end at the 35:52 mark

________________________________

Sid Hartman says about the HOF committee “They’ve got a bunch of jerks on that thing (HOF committee) right now. Mark Craig is a good guy, the guy that we got. That one reason the reason I quit.

Host: Too many jerks?

Hartman: All the veterans were leaving, Will McDonough died, Bob Oates quit. Furman Bisher quit. Tom McEwen quit. All these veteran guys quit. I was there with a bunch of young guys who didn’t know anything about these guys. Tony Dungy, if anyone deserves to go in number one, it was him. He was a coach, and (crosstalk) now he is a broadcaster. He has all the qualities that they should put in. Why they didn’t put him in is beyond me

Host: Is he good enough to get in, or is he borderline?

Hartman: He’s good enough to get in number one. He’ll get in next year. But you’ve got guys . . We used to have six guys who knew what we were doing and we had it locked up before it (meeting) started

Host: You guys ran the whole deal and no one else knew it?

Hartman: Yeah. Will McDonough, Tom McEwen, Bob Oates, Furman Bisher . . we had a meeting of our own on Friday afternoon and we had it all locked up.

Host: So you went in there and told the other guys what you were going to do?



Hartman: We just did what we had to do and we had enough votes (to get it done)



Host: Jim Finks is in, right? And if he is in Tony Dungy has contributed as much right?



Hartman: Right.



Host: And Jim Finks was outstanding, right?

[Hail Casares]

Don't have a problem with Bettis being in, that kind of longevity is remarkable enough to warrant induction. But you can look at where he finished in the individual rankings all you want, the guy was never an elite back. Every year he played, there were multiple backs who were clearly better than he was, and there was nothing separating him from five or six other guys in the league each year.

Why Sharpe and Davis aren't in is a mystery to me.

IMO at least three times in his career he was an elite back. 1993, 1996, 1997, and 2001.

I'd put both Sterling Sharpe and Davis in the HOF FWIW. Sharpe more willingly than Davis.

We may have a different view of what "elite" means. For 1993, I rank Bettis clearly behind Emmitt and Barry, and equal (that year) to Thurman Thomas, Ricky Watters, Barry Foster, and Gary Brown. 1997, Bettis's best season, I have him behind Barry and Terrell Davis and probably Dorsey Levens, and equal to Napoleon Kaufman, Robert Smith, and Corey Dillon. 2001, I don't think I'd have him in the top five -- Holmes, Martin, Green, Faulk, and Alexander had really good years, better overall than what Bettis was on pace for. For me, Bettis's inability to catch the football really holds him back compared to his peers.

I view "elite" as at the very least making an AP team. He did this in 1993 and 1996. In 1997 he was third in the NFL in rushing and in 2001 he was leading the league in rushing before he got hurt. Those would be my elite years for him.

[Reaser]

Host: And Jim Finks was outstanding, right?

Second Finks mention on the PFRA forum in the last week. Doubt that happens often on any other football forum.

[Bryan]

I'll repeat what I've said before, why is Darrell Green in? Was he ever the best CB in the NFL during his career? Was his peak that high? He was a very good corner for a long time who had this cool "fastest guy" thing going on, feels very much like the big-back thing.

I don't think Green was a great HOF selection, but I can live with it. Green was a very good starting CB for a number of years...I think from a "total production" standpoint, Green's numerous season of above-average service would put him near or at the top of CBs. He could still cover guys in man as he got older...its not like he was Ronde Barber or Bobby Boyd playing zone. Should that quality count for someting on Green's resume? I think it does, even though it might not really be reflected by anything tangible.

The pro bowl/All Pro honors for CBs are weird to me...like WRs, the top spots usually just go to the guy with the most INTs or the most receiving yards for that year. Green had consistent INT numbers, but he didn't have many standout seasons. His 7 pro bowls and 1 All Pro honors aren't really that out of whack compared to some other HOF CBs. Lem Barney (7/2), Emmitt Thomas (5/1), Dick LeBeau (3/0...does he count?). Well, maybe they aren't very good. Thomas is the only other CB in the HOF with similar honors. I would say that if I had one game to win, I'd rather have Barney or Thomas at CB instead of Green, but I also think that Green's longevity counts for something.

[JohnTurney]

I view "elite" as at the very least making an AP team. He did this in 1993 and 1996. In 1997 he was third in the NFL in rushing and in 2001 he was leading the league in rushing before he got hurt. Those would be my elite years for him.

Why just AP? Do PFWA or SN count as elite? Everyone has their own view, but I am curious why AP gets the nod over the other teams used by NFL Record and Fact Book and the 2011 NFL CBA and in Total Football: The Official Encyclopedia of the NFL

[bachslunch]

I'll repeat what I've said before, why is Darrell Green in? Was he ever the best CB in the NFL during his career? Was his peak that high? He was a very good corner for a long time who had this cool "fastest guy" thing going on, feels very much like the big-back thing.

I don't think Green was a great HOF selection, but I can live with it. Green was a very good starting CB for a number of years...I think from a "total production" standpoint, Green's numerous season of above-average service would put him near or at the top of CBs. He could still cover guys in man as he got older...its not like he was Ronde Barber or Bobby Boyd playing zone. Should that quality count for someting on Green's resume? I think it does, even though it might not really be reflected by anything tangible.

The pro bowl/All Pro honors for CBs are weird to me...like WRs, the top spots usually just go to the guy with the most INTs or the most receiving yards for that year. Green had consistent INT numbers, but he didn't have many standout seasons. His 7 pro bowls and 1 All Pro honors aren't really that out of whack compared to some other HOF CBs. Lem Barney (7/2), Emmitt Thomas (5/1), Dick LeBeau (3/0...does he count?). Well, maybe they aren't very good. Thomas is the only other CB in the HOF with similar honors. I would say that if I had one game to win, I'd rather have Barney or Thomas at CB instead of Green, but I also think that Green's longevity counts for something.

I have Darrell Green as 4/7/90s (86-87 NEA, 90 PFWkly, 91 consensus) plus he returned kicks a good bit. Lem Barney is indeed at 2/7/60s, plus he returned kicks and was the team's punter for two years. Emmitt Thomas I have at a comparatively modest 2/5/none (74 AP and PFWr, 75 NEA) plus he did minimal kick returning; he and LeBeau (like folks such as Pat Fischer and Ken Riley) are high lifetime INT/low honors DBs that strike me as weak HoF options.

[Reaser]

I have Darrell Green as 4/7/90s (86-87 NEA, 90 PFWkly, 91 consensus) ...

Ah, you're using the other major selectors now for your 'profiles'? Good to see it's not "AP Only" anymore ... or at least this is the first time I've noticed the change.

[Hail Casares]

I view "elite" as at the very least making an AP team. He did this in 1993 and 1996. In 1997 he was third in the NFL in rushing and in 2001 he was leading the league in rushing before he got hurt. Those would be my elite years for him.

Why just AP? Do PFWA or SN count as elite? Everyone has their own view, but I am curious why AP gets the nod over the other teams used by NFL Record and Fact Book and the 2011 NFL CBA and in Total Football: The Official Encyclopedia of the NFL

B/c for Bettis they are all pretty much the same.