Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

L.C. Greenwood wrote:When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.

Griese won MVP and 1st team All Pro honors in 1971 and 1977. Football Digest named him the MVP of the 1970's decade (FWIW). I'm not sure if I would agree that he was the best/most productive player of the 1970's, but I do think that Griese's career is much different than Hines Ward's career.

L.C. Greenwood wrote:...Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence...

How did he do that?

JWL wrote:

L.C. Greenwood wrote:...Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence...

How did he do that?

The "Hines Ward rule" ... Blindsiding guys as a sign of his 'toughness' - always the defenders fault for not having their head on a swivel, in my opinion. Though I also never understood how people would be quick to point to those hits as a sign of Ward being tough.

I think anyone taking an honest and neutral approach, along with a large serving of common sense, would say that if/when Ward is ever a HOF'er it'll 100% be because he played for the Steelers. If he had played for any other team and with exact equal production/accomplishments he would never even be thought of to be mentioned on these forums or anywhere else in HOF discussions.

To me it's all about the Team and the effect a player has on it.

I think Hines Ward's talent and statistics probably make him a borderline Hall of Very Good Player.
But his play on the field raised his team to another level and it is his contributions to the success of the team that may make him a Hall of Fame Player.
His blocking (for example) set a standard for the receivers on his team and showed the backs he was willing to sacrifice his body for their protection and success. Players like that (to use the tired old dogrel) make everyone else on the Team better and therefore make the Team itself better.

Conversely (and as I've said before) there are some players whose behavior is so reprehensible that it detracts from the Team and makes every player less likely to achieve their best.
I believe behavior like that detracts from a player's value to a team (regardless of their personal success) and should be considered when determining one's worthiness for the Hall of Fame.

(And I don't disagree with the assertion that much of Ward's chances are due to his popularity (but who's aren't) and that he played for a successful Steelers team for the entirety of his career... but I would point out the the Steelers' success and Ward's are reciprocal.)

Rupert Patrick wrote: Here's the best stat about Morten Andersen which is filed under Things Only I Know - During his career, Andersen was 7-13 (54 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. All the other kickers in pro football during Andersen's career (1982-2004, 2006-2007) were a collective 29-199 (30 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. Morten Andersen had the strongest leg of any kicker of his era, and would rate as one of the half dozen strongest kicking legs I have ever seen, along with Stenerud, Mike Vanderjagt, Janikowski and Neil Rackers off the top of my head. I would rate Andersen as the number four kicker of all time, behind Groza/Stenerud tied at first and Vinatieri number three, and was slightly better than Gary Anderson, who I have at number five. Morten Andersen is clearly deserving of a spot in Canton, even though Vinatieri will likely pass him in career scoring in the 2018 season.

Domo says Andersen 48% from 50 and over...so his 55+ is better? that is an interesting thing....

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eag ... _Hall.html

I never saw Andersen and Davis coming. I mean, yeah, Andersen is the leading scorer in league history. But that's because he was in the league for a hundred years.

He's 51st in career field-goal percentage. He converted only 47.6 percent of his attempts from 50-plus yards. And this is a guy who kicked in a dome for 22 of his 25 NFL seasons.

Former Eagle David Akers converted 54.0 percent. Adam Vinatieri converted 61.8 percent. Patriots kicker Stephen Gostkowski has converted 73.0. percent.

JohnTurney wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote: Here's the best stat about Morten Andersen which is filed under Things Only I Know - During his career, Andersen was 7-13 (54 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. All the other kickers in pro football during Andersen's career (1982-2004, 2006-2007) were a collective 29-199 (30 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. Morten Andersen had the strongest leg of any kicker of his era, and would rate as one of the half dozen strongest kicking legs I have ever seen, along with Stenerud, Mike Vanderjagt, Janikowski and Neil Rackers off the top of my head. I would rate Andersen as the number four kicker of all time, behind Groza/Stenerud tied at first and Vinatieri number three, and was slightly better than Gary Anderson, who I have at number five. Morten Andersen is clearly deserving of a spot in Canton, even though Vinatieri will likely pass him in career scoring in the 2018 season.

Domo says Andersen 48% from 50 and over...so his 55+ is better? that is an interesting thing....

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eag ... _Hall.html

I never saw Andersen and Davis coming. I mean, yeah, Andersen is the leading scorer in league history. But that's because he was in the league for a hundred years.

He's 51st in career field-goal percentage. He converted only 47.6 percent of his attempts from 50-plus yards. And this is a guy who kicked in a dome for 22 of his 25 NFL seasons.

Former Eagle David Akers converted 54.0 percent. Adam Vinatieri converted 61.8 percent. Patriots kicker Stephen Gostkowski has converted 73.0. percent.

The HoF voters may or may not have factored this in, but adjusted for era, he's one of the top kickers all time in FG percentage. Regardless, they were probably aware that some kind of period adjustment was appropriate here. And his still being the all time scoring leader (even though he played forever and in domes mostly) and being on two all decade teams probably mattered too.

I began to think he had a decent chance to be elected sooner or later when he made the finalist list his first eligible year and then stayed on it. My guess was that it would happen during a weaker year for finalists, and this certainly qualified. I figured it would take longer than this, but sometimes surprises happen. And this was a pretty surprising year in some ways. He benefited I think in part from all the little position logjams, allowing him to squeak through to the final five -- it probably helped Taylor, too.

Regardless, I think he belongs in and I'm very happy he was elected.

JohnTurney wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote: Here's the best stat about Morten Andersen which is filed under Things Only I Know - During his career, Andersen was 7-13 (54 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. All the other kickers in pro football during Andersen's career (1982-2004, 2006-2007) were a collective 29-199 (30 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. Morten Andersen had the strongest leg of any kicker of his era, and would rate as one of the half dozen strongest kicking legs I have ever seen, along with Stenerud, Mike Vanderjagt, Janikowski and Neil Rackers off the top of my head. I would rate Andersen as the number four kicker of all time, behind Groza/Stenerud tied at first and Vinatieri number three, and was slightly better than Gary Anderson, who I have at number five. Morten Andersen is clearly deserving of a spot in Canton, even though Vinatieri will likely pass him in career scoring in the 2018 season.

Domo says Andersen 48% from 50 and over...so his 55+ is better? that is an interesting thing....

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eag ... _Hall.html

I never saw Andersen and Davis coming. I mean, yeah, Andersen is the leading scorer in league history. But that's because he was in the league for a hundred years.

He's 51st in career field-goal percentage. He converted only 47.6 percent of his attempts from 50-plus yards. And this is a guy who kicked in a dome for 22 of his 25 NFL seasons.

Former Eagle David Akers converted 54.0 percent. Adam Vinatieri converted 61.8 percent. Patriots kicker Stephen Gostkowski has converted 73.0. percent.

I have Andersen at 7-14, not 7-13 on FG's 55 and over. The rest of the NFL during his career (1982-2007 except for 2005) with Andersen's career stats removed from this distance were 59-198 or 30 percent.

From 50-54 yards, Andersen was 47 percent, the rest of the league minus Andersen during his career was 808-1632 or 49 percent.

On field goals from 45-49, Morten was 62-94, or 66 percent, the rest of the league without his stats during his career was 1753-2994 or 59 percent.

From 35-39 yards, he was 83-100 or 83 percent, while every other kicker in the league not named Morten Andersen who played during his career was 2502-3222 or 78 percent from that distance.

From 30-34 yards, he was 106-114, 93 percent, while the rest of the league was 2582-3076, or 84 percent.

From 25-29 yards, he was 103-107 or 97 percent, while the rest of the league was 2636-2910, or 90 percent.

From 20-25 yards, Morten was 73-74, or 99 percent, while the rest of the league was 2621-2731, or 96 percent.

From under 20 yards, Morten was 13-14, or 93 percent, while the rest of the league was 486-498, or 98 percent.

Over his career, he was collectively 565-709 in FG's, 80 percent, while the rest of the league was a collective 15,681-20,572, or 76 percent.

During the regular season, Morten Andersen scored approximately 127 points more than an average NFL kicker from his era would have scored attempting the same field goals from the same distances, according to my Kicker rating system. That 127 points is currently the second highest total of any kicker in pro football history (only behind Nick Lowery) and the only other kicker who might possibly top him for second place is Lou Groza and I don't have all the missed FG distance for Groza and his contemporaries. Andersen was the greatest kicker between Stenerud and Vinatieri, clearly the best of his generation, and a deserving Hall of Famer.

Hail Casares wrote:...Curtis Martin in terms of I'm not sure he was ever truly great...he was just productive for a long time...

Martin finished top three in rushing four times (1995, 1999, 2001, 2004). That might be considered great by some. Maybe others would say no.

JuggernautJ wrote:His blocking (for example) set a standard for the receivers on his team and showed the backs he was willing to sacrifice his body for their protection and success. Players like that (to use the tired old dogrel) make everyone else on the Team better and therefore make the Team itself better.

Okay, he did block well for a receiver but how much of a factor should it be? Has there been any nerd research that determined Ward helped the Steelers gain an extra I don't know, 150 yards per season, with deft blocking?

Hardly anyone mentions others who blocked just as well or better (Art Monk, Keyshawn Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald).

Based on what one reads and hears, one is led to believe Ward is the only wide receiver in history who blocked effectively.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote: Here's the best stat about Morten Andersen which is filed under Things Only I Know - During his career, Andersen was 7-13 (54 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. All the other kickers in pro football during Andersen's career (1982-2004, 2006-2007) were a collective 29-199 (30 percent) on FG attempts of 55 yards and over. Morten Andersen had the strongest leg of any kicker of his era, and would rate as one of the half dozen strongest kicking legs I have ever seen, along with Stenerud, Mike Vanderjagt, Janikowski and Neil Rackers off the top of my head. I would rate Andersen as the number four kicker of all time, behind Groza/Stenerud tied at first and Vinatieri number three, and was slightly better than Gary Anderson, who I have at number five. Morten Andersen is clearly deserving of a spot in Canton, even though Vinatieri will likely pass him in career scoring in the 2018 season.

Domo says Andersen 48% from 50 and over...so his 55+ is better? that is an interesting thing....

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eag ... _Hall.html

I never saw Andersen and Davis coming. I mean, yeah, Andersen is the leading scorer in league history. But that's because he was in the league for a hundred years.

He's 51st in career field-goal percentage. He converted only 47.6 percent of his attempts from 50-plus yards. And this is a guy who kicked in a dome for 22 of his 25 NFL seasons.

Former Eagle David Akers converted 54.0 percent. Adam Vinatieri converted 61.8 percent. Patriots kicker Stephen Gostkowski has converted 73.0. percent.

I have Andersen at 7-14, not 7-13 on FG's 55 and over. The rest of the NFL during his career (1982-2007 except for 2005) with Andersen's career stats removed from this distance were 59-198 or 30 percent.

From 50-54 yards, Andersen was 47 percent, the rest of the league minus Andersen during his career was 808-1632 or 49 percent.

On field goals from 45-49, Morten was 62-94, or 66 percent, the rest of the league without his stats during his career was 1753-2994 or 59 percent.

From 35-39 yards, he was 83-100 or 83 percent, while every other kicker in the league not named Morten Andersen who played during his career was 2502-3222 or 78 percent from that distance.

From 30-34 yards, he was 106-114, 93 percent, while the rest of the league was 2582-3076, or 84 percent.

From 25-29 yards, he was 103-107 or 97 percent, while the rest of the league was 2636-2910, or 90 percent.

From 20-25 yards, Morten was 73-74, or 99 percent, while the rest of the league was 2621-2731, or 96 percent.

From under 20 yards, Morten was 13-14, or 93 percent, while the rest of the league was 486-498, or 98 percent.

Over his career, he was collectively 565-709 in FG's, 80 percent, while the rest of the league was a collective 15,681-20,572, or 76 percent.

During the regular season, Morten Andersen scored approximately 127 points more than an average NFL kicker from his era would have scored attempting the same field goals from the same distances, according to my Kicker rating system. That 127 points is currently the second highest total of any kicker in pro football history (only behind Nick Lowery) and the only other kicker who might possibly top him for second place is Lou Groza and I don't have all the missed FG distance for Groza and his contemporaries. Andersen was the greatest kicker between Stenerud and Vinatieri, clearly the best of his generation, and a deserving Hall of Famer.

Those are interesting and relevent stats. So, Domo was really just venting I suppose and found the one area where Andersen was below the league average, ignoring all the others (if he had them) which I doubt