Another thing about the 1967 Green Bay/Giants game, Bart Starr had not played for three weeks prior to that game due to an injury suffered in the Packers game with Atlanta. Zeke Bratkowski was Green Bay's quarterback in their last two games against Detroit and Minnesota. So, Starr may have been a little rusty against the Giants.
Bart Starr was 8 for 20 for 151 yards and 1 TD against New York. Not terrible, but not one of his greatest games. Starr was 14 for 21 for 249 yards and two TD's in the Cleveland game and Green Bay seemed to be hitting on all cylinders in that one. Then there were the 2 kickoff returns for TD's by Travis Williams and the Packers, one to start the game. It just looks like nothing went right for the Browns in that game, and everything went right for the Pack.
I wonder what would have happened if the game was played in Cleveland? I am sure that Green Bay still would have won, but 55 to 7?
1967 Blues for the Browns
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Getting back to the Cleveland-Detroit game in 1967, won by the Lions, 31 to 14, Here are some more excuses, if you will.
1. Detroit was in a great frame of mind after getting a tie in their opening game with Green Bay, which was at Green Bay. Detroit really must have felt that they had a chance to dethrone the Packers in the Western Conference, or at least win the new Central Division.
2. Cleveland was thought to be a cinch to win the new Century Division with Dallas now in a different division and the Cardinals having to go with a new quarterback with little experience. Despite getting Tarkenton, the Browns probably did not expect the Giants to be a real threat. So, they could afford a loss more than Detroit.
3. Gary Collins was injured early in the game which left the Browns with only Paul Warfield as their regular starting end or receiver. Warfield was probably double or triple teamed all day. Collins was Cleveland's best possession receiver. Usual starting tight end Milt Morin was out for most of the season.
4. Post Dallas game let down. During the late 60's, Cleveland always seemed to play a terrible game following their Dallas games. The way Detroit ran seemingly at will for first down after first down indicated to me that the Browns were very flat that day.
5. The game was in Detroit, which made it even more difficult for Cleveland. I don't think that the Browns had ever beaten the Lions at Detroit's Briggs Stadium up to that time.
6. Frank Ryan was 9 for 19 for 87 yards with 2 interceptions. Not one of his better days, even in 1967.
7. Leroy Kelly ran well that day, but fumbled while running for a TD which would have got the Browns up to 21 points. The Lions recovered.
There are probably more excuses that I can't think of right now or maybe even know about.
1. Detroit was in a great frame of mind after getting a tie in their opening game with Green Bay, which was at Green Bay. Detroit really must have felt that they had a chance to dethrone the Packers in the Western Conference, or at least win the new Central Division.
2. Cleveland was thought to be a cinch to win the new Century Division with Dallas now in a different division and the Cardinals having to go with a new quarterback with little experience. Despite getting Tarkenton, the Browns probably did not expect the Giants to be a real threat. So, they could afford a loss more than Detroit.
3. Gary Collins was injured early in the game which left the Browns with only Paul Warfield as their regular starting end or receiver. Warfield was probably double or triple teamed all day. Collins was Cleveland's best possession receiver. Usual starting tight end Milt Morin was out for most of the season.
4. Post Dallas game let down. During the late 60's, Cleveland always seemed to play a terrible game following their Dallas games. The way Detroit ran seemingly at will for first down after first down indicated to me that the Browns were very flat that day.
5. The game was in Detroit, which made it even more difficult for Cleveland. I don't think that the Browns had ever beaten the Lions at Detroit's Briggs Stadium up to that time.
6. Frank Ryan was 9 for 19 for 87 yards with 2 interceptions. Not one of his better days, even in 1967.
7. Leroy Kelly ran well that day, but fumbled while running for a TD which would have got the Browns up to 21 points. The Lions recovered.
There are probably more excuses that I can't think of right now or maybe even know about.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
The Detroit game was Frank Ryan's second worst game of 1967 by passer rating with a rating of 38.6. The worst, of course, was the Green Bay game with a rating of 9.5.
Ryan's three best that year were Washington at 127.7, Pittsburgh (second game) at 117.4, and New York (first game) at 115.0. Even though the first Giants game was third best, the Browns lost that one 38 to 34 with 4 turnovers and a blocked punt going against them.
The rest were Chicago 91.7, St. Louis (2nd game) 87.1, New Orleans 86.4, New York 85.7, St. Louis 79.2, Pittsburgh 70.4, Minnesota 64.2, and Dallas at 42.5.
So, if you take away the Green Bay and Detroit games, then Frank Ryan's passer ratings do not look quite so bad. The ratings seem to be the best against the teams with the worst defenses, and worst against the teams with the best defenses.
Ryan's three best that year were Washington at 127.7, Pittsburgh (second game) at 117.4, and New York (first game) at 115.0. Even though the first Giants game was third best, the Browns lost that one 38 to 34 with 4 turnovers and a blocked punt going against them.
The rest were Chicago 91.7, St. Louis (2nd game) 87.1, New Orleans 86.4, New York 85.7, St. Louis 79.2, Pittsburgh 70.4, Minnesota 64.2, and Dallas at 42.5.
So, if you take away the Green Bay and Detroit games, then Frank Ryan's passer ratings do not look quite so bad. The ratings seem to be the best against the teams with the worst defenses, and worst against the teams with the best defenses.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Frank Ryan's Passer Rating stats in 1966 were so much better than his 1967 Passer Rating stats that game for game, the 1966 stats were better. For example, the best game in 1966 Passer Rating was 139.9 compared to 127.7 in the best game of 1967. The 5th best was 111.5 in 1966 compared to 87.1 in 1967, and the 10th best in 1966 was 88.7 compared to 64.2 in 1967.
I don't believe that any kind of stat in 1967 for Frank Ryan was better than any stat in 1966. It is amazing that Ryan played as much as he did in 1967 with all of the injuries that he had.
I don't believe that any kind of stat in 1967 for Frank Ryan was better than any stat in 1966. It is amazing that Ryan played as much as he did in 1967 with all of the injuries that he had.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Here is something that further separates the quality of play between the 1966 Cleveland Browns and their 1967 team. In 1966, the Browns lost a game to the Green Bay Packers by the score of 21 to 20. In that game, Cleveland was ahead at some point in the first half, 14 to 0. The Packers chipped away at that lead by Cleveland and ended up winning the game on the last play of their last possession which was a fourth and goal situation on the 9 yard line of Cleveland.
On that play, Bart Starr threw a screen pass to Jim Taylor and Taylor managed to get around at least 2 Browns tacklers and make the 9 yards for the winning TD. The TD and the extra point made the final score 21 to 20, so Green Bay managed to get their closest win of that era. It also served to end up pretty much killing Cleveland's chances of winning the Eastern Conference Championship for the third year in a row.
From 1960 until Green Bay's last regular season game of 1967 against Pittsburgh, the Packers did not lose even one game against a team in the Eastern Conference, which includes some pretty good teams like the New York Giants (early sixties), Dallas Cowboys, and Cleveland. Of all the games against Eastern Conference opponents between 1960 and their final regular season game with Pittsburgh in 1967, the Cleveland game was their closest in games against Eastern Conference teams.
BTW, in the 1967 Pittsburgh game, Green Bay had their division clinched and the game really did not mean anything. Green Bay played many of their reserves in that game and their third string quarterback, Don Horn, played most of that game at quarterback.
And so, that is quite a difference in the years 1966 and 1967. In 1966, the Cleveland Browns gave the Green Bay Packers their toughest game of any eastern opponent during the years in question. In 1967, Cleveland lost 55 to 7 to Green Bay.
On that play, Bart Starr threw a screen pass to Jim Taylor and Taylor managed to get around at least 2 Browns tacklers and make the 9 yards for the winning TD. The TD and the extra point made the final score 21 to 20, so Green Bay managed to get their closest win of that era. It also served to end up pretty much killing Cleveland's chances of winning the Eastern Conference Championship for the third year in a row.
From 1960 until Green Bay's last regular season game of 1967 against Pittsburgh, the Packers did not lose even one game against a team in the Eastern Conference, which includes some pretty good teams like the New York Giants (early sixties), Dallas Cowboys, and Cleveland. Of all the games against Eastern Conference opponents between 1960 and their final regular season game with Pittsburgh in 1967, the Cleveland game was their closest in games against Eastern Conference teams.
BTW, in the 1967 Pittsburgh game, Green Bay had their division clinched and the game really did not mean anything. Green Bay played many of their reserves in that game and their third string quarterback, Don Horn, played most of that game at quarterback.
And so, that is quite a difference in the years 1966 and 1967. In 1966, the Cleveland Browns gave the Green Bay Packers their toughest game of any eastern opponent during the years in question. In 1967, Cleveland lost 55 to 7 to Green Bay.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Then there was the 1967 New York Giants, one of the most improved teams in football history. Of course, the biggest reason for the improvement was the acquisition of quarterback Fran Tarkenton in a trade with the Minnesota Vikings. The Giants went from a record of 1-12-1 in 1966 to 7-7 in 1967. They also had a record breaking 501 points allowed in 1966 which improved to 379 points allowed in 1967.
As great as Tarkenton was in 1967, there were others that helped. Mentioned before was 35 year old middle linebacker Vince Costello, who gave the Giants their best season at that position since the days of Sam Huff. Spider Lockhart was amazing at free safety and even seemed to make most of the tackles sometimes even though he was not very big as far as pro football players go.
I was impressed with left corner back Scott Eaton, a rookie in 1967, who seemed to adjust very well to the NFL. Willie Young was an improvement over what the Giants had in 1966 at left offensive tackle, which was him as a rookie in 1966 for part of the season. Jim Katcavage made some big plays in 1967 including a sack of Frank Ryan to end the Cleveland Browns threat of winning in the first game between the two rivals.
I have mentioned before that Cleveland had an easy schedule playing only 3 teams that had winning records and playing in the weakest division of the NFL in 1967. The Giants played in that division as well and getting a split with the Browns, played the same teams that Cleveland did. Getting Tarkenton apparently leapfrogged the New York Giants over teams like Washington, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and maybe even St. Louis.
As great as Tarkenton was in 1967, there were others that helped. Mentioned before was 35 year old middle linebacker Vince Costello, who gave the Giants their best season at that position since the days of Sam Huff. Spider Lockhart was amazing at free safety and even seemed to make most of the tackles sometimes even though he was not very big as far as pro football players go.
I was impressed with left corner back Scott Eaton, a rookie in 1967, who seemed to adjust very well to the NFL. Willie Young was an improvement over what the Giants had in 1966 at left offensive tackle, which was him as a rookie in 1966 for part of the season. Jim Katcavage made some big plays in 1967 including a sack of Frank Ryan to end the Cleveland Browns threat of winning in the first game between the two rivals.
I have mentioned before that Cleveland had an easy schedule playing only 3 teams that had winning records and playing in the weakest division of the NFL in 1967. The Giants played in that division as well and getting a split with the Browns, played the same teams that Cleveland did. Getting Tarkenton apparently leapfrogged the New York Giants over teams like Washington, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and maybe even St. Louis.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Oops! I should have mentioned the Giants receivers in 1967 like Homer Jones, Aaron Thomas, and Joe Morrison. They were all good receivers enhanced by having Fran Tarkenton throwing to them that year. I don't know about PFHOF, but I believe that all three of those Giants receivers would be good candidates for the Hall of Very Good. Morrison was also a pretty good running back and had also played in the defensive backfield years earlier.
Ernie Koy also had a good year averaging 4.8 yards per carry for over 700 yards, which may show the improvement of the Giants offensive line in 1967. Koy only averaged 2.2 yards per carry in 1966. Quite a difference in the 2 years. I think that offensive linemen Willie Young, Darrell Dess, Greg Larson, and Pete Case all had good years.
Ernie Koy also had a good year averaging 4.8 yards per carry for over 700 yards, which may show the improvement of the Giants offensive line in 1967. Koy only averaged 2.2 yards per carry in 1966. Quite a difference in the 2 years. I think that offensive linemen Willie Young, Darrell Dess, Greg Larson, and Pete Case all had good years.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
I guess that some would try to make a case that the 1967 Giants were a better team than the 1967 Browns even though Cleveland did win their division by 2 games. The Browns were lucky in some of their wins and were really a crippled team that year while the Giants offense seemed to be hitting on all cylinders that year with Fran Tarkenton playing very well and others having good years, maybe also because of Tarkenton.
The Browns were lucky to beat the Cardinals in both of their games and also had some luck against Minnesota and Washington and looked terrible in losses to Green Bay, Detroit, and in their playoff against Dallas. The Giants were unlucky in their losses to Washington and Minnesota, but got the breaks in their first game with Cleveland. They also pulled out close games with Pittsburgh and New Orleans with last minute TD's.
I wonder what would have happened if the Giants played New Orleans later in the season when the Saints seemed to be improved and playing better? Would the same thing happen that did the year before against Atlanta (or the year after)?
Anyway, I am sure that some old Giants fans considered the 1967 Giants at least equal to Cleveland that year, but old Browns fans probably would not agree.
The Browns were lucky to beat the Cardinals in both of their games and also had some luck against Minnesota and Washington and looked terrible in losses to Green Bay, Detroit, and in their playoff against Dallas. The Giants were unlucky in their losses to Washington and Minnesota, but got the breaks in their first game with Cleveland. They also pulled out close games with Pittsburgh and New Orleans with last minute TD's.
I wonder what would have happened if the Giants played New Orleans later in the season when the Saints seemed to be improved and playing better? Would the same thing happen that did the year before against Atlanta (or the year after)?
Anyway, I am sure that some old Giants fans considered the 1967 Giants at least equal to Cleveland that year, but old Browns fans probably would not agree.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
After the 1967 season, the New York Giants made a couple of trades that they figured to help them improve some. A trade with Green Bay netted them a couple of new starters for 1968. They were linebacker Tommy Crutcher and tackle Steve Wright. For this they sent tackle Francis Peay to the Packers. Peay was the Giants 1st round draft choice in 1966, but was considered a disappointment.
Some of the New York press wrote that the deal really favored the Giants and maybe the Packers GM Vince Lombardi felt sorry for his old team (the Giants) and decided to help out the Giants for old times sake. Actually, Crutcher and Wright had been reserves for the Packers and both only lasted a couple of years at New York. Peay became the starting left tackle for Green Bay for two or three years after Bob Skoronski retired.
The Giants needed a defensive back to replace the retired Wendell Harris, so they traded linebacker Bill Swain to Detroit for safety Bruce Maher and included in the deal was running back Bill Triplett to Detroit for guard Doug Van Horn. So, with Crutcher replacing Swain at left linebacker in 1968, the Giants gained 3 starters that year with Maher at strong safety and Wright at right tackle.
Doug Van Horn became the starting right guard in 1969. I don't think that Lombardi was really trying to help the Giants. Willie Davis recommended Peay to the Green Bay coaching staff even though the Giants did not want him. Green Bay had drafted linebacker Fred Carr in the first round of the 1968 draft, so they apparently felt that Crutcher was expendable after being a reserve for 4 years.
Steve Wright was a reserve tackle for 4 years with the Packers, but may have been somewhat of a disappointment for Green Bay and probably was also considered expendable. So, it may have just been a dump job for Green Bay and also getting Francis Peay, who Willie Davis said had some potential. BTW, I read Steve Wright's book, "I'd Rather Be Wright." Don't know if I agree with some of it, but a fun read.
Some of the New York press wrote that the deal really favored the Giants and maybe the Packers GM Vince Lombardi felt sorry for his old team (the Giants) and decided to help out the Giants for old times sake. Actually, Crutcher and Wright had been reserves for the Packers and both only lasted a couple of years at New York. Peay became the starting left tackle for Green Bay for two or three years after Bob Skoronski retired.
The Giants needed a defensive back to replace the retired Wendell Harris, so they traded linebacker Bill Swain to Detroit for safety Bruce Maher and included in the deal was running back Bill Triplett to Detroit for guard Doug Van Horn. So, with Crutcher replacing Swain at left linebacker in 1968, the Giants gained 3 starters that year with Maher at strong safety and Wright at right tackle.
Doug Van Horn became the starting right guard in 1969. I don't think that Lombardi was really trying to help the Giants. Willie Davis recommended Peay to the Green Bay coaching staff even though the Giants did not want him. Green Bay had drafted linebacker Fred Carr in the first round of the 1968 draft, so they apparently felt that Crutcher was expendable after being a reserve for 4 years.
Steve Wright was a reserve tackle for 4 years with the Packers, but may have been somewhat of a disappointment for Green Bay and probably was also considered expendable. So, it may have just been a dump job for Green Bay and also getting Francis Peay, who Willie Davis said had some potential. BTW, I read Steve Wright's book, "I'd Rather Be Wright." Don't know if I agree with some of it, but a fun read.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Green Bay guard and author Jerry Kramer had nice words for linebacker Tommy Crutcher in his books, even though Tommy was a reserve for the Packers. Green Bay had the finest set of starting linebackers at the time and it would have been nearly impossible for any linebacker to break into their starting lineup. Also, Green Bay had given up Jim Ringo to get Lee Roy Caffey.
It could be that Crutcher and/or Steve Wright asked to be traded so they could get more playing time, and both became starters for the Giants in 1968 (Crutcher in 1968 at left linebacker and 1969 at right linebacker). Jerry Kramer said that when Crutcher did substitute for an injured Packer linebacker, there wasn't much of a drop off in the quality of the defense.
Of course, you seldom or ever see a reserve player in the NFL play for 7 or 8 years as a reserve for any team. Green Bay did draft linebacker Fred Carr in the first round in 1968 (number 5 overall pick) and guard Bill Lueck later in the first round and tackle Dick Himes in the third round, so I guess that the Packers felt that they had the departures of Crutcher and Wright covered. Those three draftees had long careers in Green Bay.
So, both Crutcher and Wright probably could have started with some teams other than the Giants if they were not on Green Bay.
It could be that Crutcher and/or Steve Wright asked to be traded so they could get more playing time, and both became starters for the Giants in 1968 (Crutcher in 1968 at left linebacker and 1969 at right linebacker). Jerry Kramer said that when Crutcher did substitute for an injured Packer linebacker, there wasn't much of a drop off in the quality of the defense.
Of course, you seldom or ever see a reserve player in the NFL play for 7 or 8 years as a reserve for any team. Green Bay did draft linebacker Fred Carr in the first round in 1968 (number 5 overall pick) and guard Bill Lueck later in the first round and tackle Dick Himes in the third round, so I guess that the Packers felt that they had the departures of Crutcher and Wright covered. Those three draftees had long careers in Green Bay.
So, both Crutcher and Wright probably could have started with some teams other than the Giants if they were not on Green Bay.