I am glad that we apparently don't need the draft anymore and I hope that we never do. It would be nice if we never had wars again.RichardBak wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:20 amMan, when will we ever see something like that again? Big names like Elvis, Willie Mays, etc. putting their careers on hold to do a 2-year hitch. Or a guy like Staubach actually honoring his commitment to 6 years active duty after graduating from the Naval Academy instead of trying to wrangle out of it. For better or worse, a different era, to be sure.
1967 Blues for the Browns
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Meanwhile, back in 1967:
BD Sullivan once remarked that Cleveland was not a very good second half team in 1966 and 1967. Add that to the fact that the Browns did not play very well on the road, and I would have to say that Cleveland was not as well conditioned as other teams, especially Green Bay. This may have been the case in 1966, but that year they wanted to show that they were a good team even without the great Jim Brown.
In 1967, I think that they surpassed themselves. Having the 5 player hold out didn't help and the disappointing end to the 1966 season probably did not do their attitude much good. I read somewhere that the Browns had easy training camps, at least compared to other NFL teams. Of course there was Ryan's bad year and other things mentioned before. Cleveland just seemed to go through the motions for much of 1967.
BD Sullivan once remarked that Cleveland was not a very good second half team in 1966 and 1967. Add that to the fact that the Browns did not play very well on the road, and I would have to say that Cleveland was not as well conditioned as other teams, especially Green Bay. This may have been the case in 1966, but that year they wanted to show that they were a good team even without the great Jim Brown.
In 1967, I think that they surpassed themselves. Having the 5 player hold out didn't help and the disappointing end to the 1966 season probably did not do their attitude much good. I read somewhere that the Browns had easy training camps, at least compared to other NFL teams. Of course there was Ryan's bad year and other things mentioned before. Cleveland just seemed to go through the motions for much of 1967.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Speaking of "dead teams," I think that the Giants were one in their game against the Chicago Bears. They had lost the previous week against Fran Tarkenton's old team, the Minnesota Vikings. In the Vikings game, the Giants had led for most of the game only to lose it at the end by a field goal after a Giants fumble. That had to be a tough way to lose, especially for Tarkenton.Saban1 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:21 pm What a difference a year makes. In 1966, the Cleveland Browns were one of the best teams in football. The New York Giants were the worst team in major league football and possibly in pro football history setting a record for allowing the most points (501) in a season in NFL history and losing by scores of 52 to 7, 55 to 14, and 72 to 41 and also being the first team to lose to the first year Atlanta Falcons, who were arguably the most inept expansion team in league history.
In 1967, the Giants improved a lot, mostly due to the acquisition of quarterback Fran Tarkenton, who was one of the best quarterbacks of his time and maybe all time. Also helping were getting new players like MLB Vince Costello,DT Bob Lurtsema, rookies LB Ken Avery, Scott Eaton, and good play from veterans Homer Jones, Joe Morrison, Ernie Koy, Spider Lockhart, Jim Katcavage, and Henry Carr.
The Cleveland Browns went the other way in 1967 and declined so much that you could probably make a case that the improved Giants were about as good as the Browns that year despite having a defense that still was not very good. Let's compare the two teams against common opponents:
Cleveland has an edge against Pittsburgh winning 21 to 10 and 34 to 14 whereas the Giants beat the Steelers 27 to 24 and 28 to 20. With New Orleans it was the Browns winning 42 to 7 and Giants winning 27 to 21. Cleveland beat Chicago 24 to 0 and the Giants lost to Chicago 34 to 7. Big edge to Cleveland in those games.
The Giants beat St. Louis 37 to 14 and 37 to 20 whereas the Browns beat the Cards by identical scores of 20 to 16 in both games. New York beat Philadelphia 44 to 7 and Cleveland lost to the Eagles 28 to 24 in a throwaway game with their division clinched. Champion Green Bay beat the Giants 48 to 21 and beat Cleveland 55 to 7. Big edge to the Giants there.
The two games that actually won the Century Division over the Giants were the Browns beating the Vikings 14 to 10 and the Vikings beating the Giants 27 to 24, and Cleveland beating the Redskins 42 to 37 and the Redskins beating New York 38 to 34. All four of those game could have gone either way with luck being a factor in at least 3 of them, but those were the games that ended up deciding the division race.
Cleveland lost to Detroit 31 to 14 and the Giants lost to Detroit 30 to 7 as the Giants were essentially a dead team after being eliminated from playoff contention the week before. Cleveland lost to Dallas in the opener 21 to 14 and New York lost to Dallas 38 to 24. Sound like an edge for the Browns here except that Cleveland lost to Dallas in the playoffs 52 to 14.
If you count in the playoff game with Dallas, then Cleveland scored 348 points in 1967 while allowing 349 points and the Giants scored 369 points and allowed 379 points. Not really a great difference in the quality of play by both teams.
Fran Tarkenton wanted to win the Vikings game as much or more than any other game that year due to the fact that he had played for Minnesota for six years. It was hard for Fran to take losing that game and especially after losing the way that they did with the last minute fumble and the field goal by the Vikings to make the score 27 to 24.
The week after the Vikings game, the Giants lost to Chicago, 34 to 7, and Tarkenton had a terrible game. He was apparently down and in 1967, as Fran Tarkenton went, so went the Giants. So, it looks like the Giants were a dead team for that game.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Even though the Cleveland Browns had a 9 and 5 record in 1967, their opponents gained nearly 600 yards from scrimmage more than them. That may be a team record, at least up to that time, but there were some factors that would be in Cleveland's favor as far as the yards go.
One factor is that Ben Davis led the league in kickoff returns that year and Carl Ward had a more than 100 yard kickoff (104 yards I think) return against Washington. The fact that they got more yards on their kickoff and punt returns (more than 300 I think) than their opponents did should cut into the 600 yards from scrimmage.
Another thing was turnovers. They were about even over the year or about a difference of one, but there was a difference of 6 in the Green Bay game alone and a difference of a couple more turnovers plus a blocked punt in the first Giants game. There were also 3 turnovers for the Browns in the Detroit game compared to 0 for the Lions in that game.
Of course, those games don't include the playoff game against Dallas, won by the Cowboys, 52 to 14. Only one turnover by the Browns in that game, but it was a pick 6.
One factor is that Ben Davis led the league in kickoff returns that year and Carl Ward had a more than 100 yard kickoff (104 yards I think) return against Washington. The fact that they got more yards on their kickoff and punt returns (more than 300 I think) than their opponents did should cut into the 600 yards from scrimmage.
Another thing was turnovers. They were about even over the year or about a difference of one, but there was a difference of 6 in the Green Bay game alone and a difference of a couple more turnovers plus a blocked punt in the first Giants game. There were also 3 turnovers for the Browns in the Detroit game compared to 0 for the Lions in that game.
Of course, those games don't include the playoff game against Dallas, won by the Cowboys, 52 to 14. Only one turnover by the Browns in that game, but it was a pick 6.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
So, the big game for the Cleveland Browns in 1967 as far as the Century Division race went was their second game with the New York Giants, a team that only won one game the year before. Even though the Giants had improved, I really expected Cleveland to win by a score of about 50 to 0. I wasn't expecting the game to be very competitive, but the Browns did not have the game nearly put away until the fourth quarter when Jim Houston had a pick six to make the score 24 to 7.
Cleveland's defense did a good job containing Fran Tarkenton, but their offense only scored 17 points (Houston's pick 6 made the final score 24 to 14). What I did not realize was the extent of Frank Ryan's arm and shoulder injuries. Ryan only passed for a net 32 yards (passing yards minus yards lost from sacks) passing. The Browns were carried that day by their defense and their running game. Gary Collins got most of their pass receiving yards with 45 yards and one TD.
Cleveland didn't clinch the Century Division title until their next game against the Cardinals when Ryan only passed for a net 49 yards and Jim Houston had another pick 6 in the fourth quarter of that game. The final score was 20 to 16 in favor of the Browns. Of course, both teams knew that even if the Cardinals won, Cleveland could still win the division with a win over Philadelphia the next week which was the final game of the regular season, and the Eagles were not very good.
I can see why they rested Ryan in the Philadelphia game.
Cleveland's defense did a good job containing Fran Tarkenton, but their offense only scored 17 points (Houston's pick 6 made the final score 24 to 14). What I did not realize was the extent of Frank Ryan's arm and shoulder injuries. Ryan only passed for a net 32 yards (passing yards minus yards lost from sacks) passing. The Browns were carried that day by their defense and their running game. Gary Collins got most of their pass receiving yards with 45 yards and one TD.
Cleveland didn't clinch the Century Division title until their next game against the Cardinals when Ryan only passed for a net 49 yards and Jim Houston had another pick 6 in the fourth quarter of that game. The final score was 20 to 16 in favor of the Browns. Of course, both teams knew that even if the Cardinals won, Cleveland could still win the division with a win over Philadelphia the next week which was the final game of the regular season, and the Eagles were not very good.
I can see why they rested Ryan in the Philadelphia game.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
About the 1967 Giants: Over 20 players were gone from the 1966 team and I counted 22 new players on the New York Giants in 1967. On their defense, there were 9 players starting different positions from the 1966 team. Jim Katcavage at left defensive end and Wendell Harris at strong safety were the only players still playing the same starting position as the year before.
Spider Lockhart was moved from left cornerback to free safety in 1967 and Henry Carr was moved from free safety to right cornerback that year. Rookie Scott Eaton became the starting left cornerback in 1967. 35 year old Vince Costello joined the Giants just about 4 days before the start of the regular season that year, but started in every game at middle linebacker.
Other new starters on defense were defensive tackles Jim Moran and rookie (sort of) Bob Lurtsema, right defensive end Glen Condren, rookie Ken Avery at right linebacker, and Bill Swain at left linebacker. Lurtsema had played minor league football in 1966 and was on the Baltimore Colts taxi squad that year. Bill Swain missed the 1966 season along with fullback Tucker Frederickson with knee injuries. Both returned as starters in 1967.
Along with Frederickson, other new starters on offense in 1967 were quarterback Fran Tarkenton, and Charlie Harper at right tackle. Harper replaced 1966 number one draft choice Francis Peay who was traded to Green Bay in 1968 for linebacker Tommy Crutcher and right tackle Steve Wright. It was Green Bay's defensive end Willie Davis who recommended Peay to the Packers coaching staff, hence the trade.
The Giants' defense apparently improved in 1967, but how much is hard to tell. With Tarkenton and the improved offense, the Giants defense generally had better field position due to less sacks, less interceptions, and less 3 and outs, and had to spend less time on the field.
Spider Lockhart was moved from left cornerback to free safety in 1967 and Henry Carr was moved from free safety to right cornerback that year. Rookie Scott Eaton became the starting left cornerback in 1967. 35 year old Vince Costello joined the Giants just about 4 days before the start of the regular season that year, but started in every game at middle linebacker.
Other new starters on defense were defensive tackles Jim Moran and rookie (sort of) Bob Lurtsema, right defensive end Glen Condren, rookie Ken Avery at right linebacker, and Bill Swain at left linebacker. Lurtsema had played minor league football in 1966 and was on the Baltimore Colts taxi squad that year. Bill Swain missed the 1966 season along with fullback Tucker Frederickson with knee injuries. Both returned as starters in 1967.
Along with Frederickson, other new starters on offense in 1967 were quarterback Fran Tarkenton, and Charlie Harper at right tackle. Harper replaced 1966 number one draft choice Francis Peay who was traded to Green Bay in 1968 for linebacker Tommy Crutcher and right tackle Steve Wright. It was Green Bay's defensive end Willie Davis who recommended Peay to the Packers coaching staff, hence the trade.
The Giants' defense apparently improved in 1967, but how much is hard to tell. With Tarkenton and the improved offense, the Giants defense generally had better field position due to less sacks, less interceptions, and less 3 and outs, and had to spend less time on the field.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Even though Clarence Childs was not listed as a starter in 1967, he actually started in 12 games that year, mostly at right cornerback after Henry Carr was injured. Childs had been the starter at that position in 1966. Childs may not have been one of the best cover guys and often seemed to be called for pass interference for tackling the receiver before the ball got to him.
Childs was a good tackler and return man, but was gone after the 1967 season, and so was Henry Carr. Starting at right cornerback in 1968 was Willie Williams, who turned out to be a good one. Williams was a rookie reserve for the Giants in 1965, but played for the Oakland Raiders in 1966. Willie returned to the Giants in 1967, but didn't become a regular starter until 1968.
Another like Williams was Roger Anderson, a rookie in 1964. In 1966, Roger was taken by the Atlanta Falcons in the expansion draft, but I think was cut by Atlanta and played in Canada that year. Anderson returned to the Giants in 1967 and became their starting left defensive tackle in 1968.
Freeman White was a rookie in 1966, and got a lot of playing time in 1967 in the defensive backfield. White was not a regular starter in 1967, but was listed as a starter in 6 games that year. I have seen most Giants games in 1967 on film and sometimes when the games were actually played, and White seemed to be playing most of the time.
Childs was a good tackler and return man, but was gone after the 1967 season, and so was Henry Carr. Starting at right cornerback in 1968 was Willie Williams, who turned out to be a good one. Williams was a rookie reserve for the Giants in 1965, but played for the Oakland Raiders in 1966. Willie returned to the Giants in 1967, but didn't become a regular starter until 1968.
Another like Williams was Roger Anderson, a rookie in 1964. In 1966, Roger was taken by the Atlanta Falcons in the expansion draft, but I think was cut by Atlanta and played in Canada that year. Anderson returned to the Giants in 1967 and became their starting left defensive tackle in 1968.
Freeman White was a rookie in 1966, and got a lot of playing time in 1967 in the defensive backfield. White was not a regular starter in 1967, but was listed as a starter in 6 games that year. I have seen most Giants games in 1967 on film and sometimes when the games were actually played, and White seemed to be playing most of the time.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
Here is something to think about. What was worse, Cleveland's 55 to 7 loss to Green Bay in 1967 or the Giants 48 to 21 loss to the Packers during the same season? The natural answer is Cleveland's 55 to 7 loss, but now we (or maybe just I) see that there were some extenuating circumstances for the Cleveland Browns in 1967, so maybe a top 10 list is in order here. So:
1. Cleveland was the more talented team, but the Giants had the better quarterback, especially in 1967. The injury prone Frank Ryan had 4 interceptions and a lost fumble in the Green Bay game. Maybe a healthier Ryan would not have had such a terrible game.
2. Green Bay scored 38 points in the second half against the Giants.
3. Lou Groza was 43 years old that year and was not kicking the football as far as was usual for him. That probably contributed to two Travis Williams run backs for TD's in the first quarter alone which contributed to the 35 to 7 lead at the end of that quarter. Groza's kickoff's were to about the 15 and 13 yard lines. 1967 turned out to be his last year of a long career.
4. I believe that the Packers were up more for the Browns game than they were for the Giants. The Giants were the worst team in the NFL the year before (1-12-1 record and a record breaking 501 points given up).
5. The Giants had the home field advantage in the 1967 Green Bay game. The Browns had to play the Packers in Milwaukee and were on the tail end of a three game road trip. The Browns had a history of playing badly on the end of three game road trips like the 24 to 17 title game in 1951 against the Rams for their only loss to the Rams during the 50's, a 59 to 14 loss to Detroit in the 1957 title game, a 23 to 12 loss to Green Bay in the 1965 title game, a 10 to 0 loss to the Giants in the 1958 playoff game, a 52 to 14 loss to Dallas in the 1967 playoff game, and the 55 to 7 loss in this game.
6. Homer Jones scored two TD's for the Giants on passes of 22 and 30 yards. During those days, the Giants with a scrambling quarterback and Jones being hard to cover, Jones scored a lot of TD's for New York. Jones was a big part of the Giants offense.
7. The Giants were actually leading 14 to 10 against the Packers at halftime of that 1967 game, but Green Bay scored 38 points to the Giants 7 in the second half.
8.The Cleveland game was out of control for the Browns early in the game (45 to 7 at the half) whereas the Giants seemed to be playing well for half the game, and yet, Cleveland ended up only giving up 7 points more than the Giants in their Green Bay games.
9. Travis Williams did not return any kickoffs against the Giants.
10. Cleveland was kind of a crippled team in 1967 whereas the Giants offense seemed to be hitting on all cylinders that year.
The Browns 55 to 7 loss was considered the worst and most humiliating regular season loss ever or at least up to that time while the Giants felt good after the Packers game being that they played pretty well in that game, at least in the first half. So, what was worse? You decide.
1. Cleveland was the more talented team, but the Giants had the better quarterback, especially in 1967. The injury prone Frank Ryan had 4 interceptions and a lost fumble in the Green Bay game. Maybe a healthier Ryan would not have had such a terrible game.
2. Green Bay scored 38 points in the second half against the Giants.
3. Lou Groza was 43 years old that year and was not kicking the football as far as was usual for him. That probably contributed to two Travis Williams run backs for TD's in the first quarter alone which contributed to the 35 to 7 lead at the end of that quarter. Groza's kickoff's were to about the 15 and 13 yard lines. 1967 turned out to be his last year of a long career.
4. I believe that the Packers were up more for the Browns game than they were for the Giants. The Giants were the worst team in the NFL the year before (1-12-1 record and a record breaking 501 points given up).
5. The Giants had the home field advantage in the 1967 Green Bay game. The Browns had to play the Packers in Milwaukee and were on the tail end of a three game road trip. The Browns had a history of playing badly on the end of three game road trips like the 24 to 17 title game in 1951 against the Rams for their only loss to the Rams during the 50's, a 59 to 14 loss to Detroit in the 1957 title game, a 23 to 12 loss to Green Bay in the 1965 title game, a 10 to 0 loss to the Giants in the 1958 playoff game, a 52 to 14 loss to Dallas in the 1967 playoff game, and the 55 to 7 loss in this game.
6. Homer Jones scored two TD's for the Giants on passes of 22 and 30 yards. During those days, the Giants with a scrambling quarterback and Jones being hard to cover, Jones scored a lot of TD's for New York. Jones was a big part of the Giants offense.
7. The Giants were actually leading 14 to 10 against the Packers at halftime of that 1967 game, but Green Bay scored 38 points to the Giants 7 in the second half.
8.The Cleveland game was out of control for the Browns early in the game (45 to 7 at the half) whereas the Giants seemed to be playing well for half the game, and yet, Cleveland ended up only giving up 7 points more than the Giants in their Green Bay games.
9. Travis Williams did not return any kickoffs against the Giants.
10. Cleveland was kind of a crippled team in 1967 whereas the Giants offense seemed to be hitting on all cylinders that year.
The Browns 55 to 7 loss was considered the worst and most humiliating regular season loss ever or at least up to that time while the Giants felt good after the Packers game being that they played pretty well in that game, at least in the first half. So, what was worse? You decide.
Re: 1967 Blues for the Browns
The Packers were leading 35 to 7 after the first quarter of the 1967 Browns game. Here is the order of the scoring:Saban1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:47 pm Here is something to think about. What was worse, Cleveland's 55 to 7 loss to Green Bay in 1967 or the Giants 48 to 21 loss to the Packers during the same season? The natural answer is Cleveland's 55 to 7 loss, but now we (or maybe just I) see that there were some extenuating circumstances for the Cleveland Browns in 1967, so maybe a top 10 list is in order here. So:
1. Cleveland was the more talented team, but the Giants had the better quarterback, especially in 1967. The injury prone Frank Ryan had 4 interceptions and a lost fumble in the Green Bay game. Maybe a healthier Ryan would not have had such a terrible game.
2. Green Bay scored 38 points in the second half against the Giants.
3. Lou Groza was 43 years old that year and was not kicking the football as far as was usual for him. That probably contributed to two Travis Williams run backs for TD's in the first quarter alone which contributed to the 35 to 7 lead at the end of that quarter. Groza's kickoff's were to about the 15 and 13 yard lines. 1967 turned out to be his last year of a long career.
4. I believe that the Packers were up more for the Browns game than they were for the Giants. The Giants were the worst team in the NFL the year before (1-12-1 record and a record breaking 501 points given up).
5. The Giants had the home field advantage in the 1967 Green Bay game. The Browns had to play the Packers in Milwaukee and were on the tail end of a three game road trip. The Browns had a history of playing badly on the end of three game road trips like the 24 to 17 title game in 1951 against the Rams for their only loss to the Rams during the 50's, a 59 to 14 loss to Detroit in the 1957 title game, a 23 to 12 loss to Green Bay in the 1965 title game, a 10 to 0 loss to the Giants in the 1958 playoff game, a 52 to 14 loss to Dallas in the 1967 playoff game, and the 55 to 7 loss in this game.
6. Homer Jones scored two TD's for the Giants on passes of 22 and 30 yards. During those days, the Giants with a scrambling quarterback and Jones being hard to cover, Jones scored a lot of TD's for New York. Jones was a big part of the Giants offense.
7. The Giants were actually leading 14 to 10 against the Packers at halftime of that 1967 game, but Green Bay scored 38 points to the Giants 7 in the second half.
8.The Cleveland game was out of control for the Browns early in the game (45 to 7 at the half) whereas the Giants seemed to be playing well for half the game, and yet, Cleveland ended up only giving up 7 points more than the Giants in their Green Bay games.
9. Travis Williams did not return any kickoffs against the Giants.
10. Cleveland was kind of a crippled team in 1967 whereas the Giants offense seemed to be hitting on all cylinders that year.
The Browns 55 to 7 loss was considered the worst and most humiliating regular season loss ever or at least up to that time while the Giants felt good after the Packers game being that they played pretty well in that game, at least in the first half. So, what was worse? You decide.
1. Travis Williams returned the opening kickoff for a TD (7-0).
2. On the first play from scrimmage, Ryan threw an interception. Green Bay quickly scored with a TD pass (14-0).
3. On Cleveland's next possession, Ryan was sacked and fumbled. Green Bay recovered and shortly scored another TD (21-0).
4. On the following kickoff, Cleveland's return man fumbled, and Green Bay recovered and then passed for another TD (28 to 0).
5. Ernie Green scored a TD on a 59 yard run (28 to 7).
6. On the kickoff following Green's TD, Travis ran it back for another TD (35 to 7).
And so, that game was basically over shortly after it started. The rest of the game had the Cleveland Browns pretty much just going through the motions. I suppose that the Packers could have run up the score even more if they wanted to.