Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Ness wrote:

JWL wrote:

On page 1 of this thread (you can look it up), I advocated Owens for induction.

He got kicked off a team for crying out loud.

Look, there is no way he will not eventually get in, so it is sort of cool he gets to stew for a while.

As for Andersen, yes, different era. You kind of have to compare his stats to players in his era. If you don't do that, then guys like Jan Stenerud, Bobby Layne, Joe Namath, Doak Walker, and Charlie Sanders could be made to look like pieces of crap depending upon what stats you look at.

The explicit guidelines advocated by the Vice President of the HOF, Joe Horrigan, says that players should be recognized for their own the field achievements only. The voters are making it about themselves and who they think is a "nice guy". Which is why Warner is in. And why Hines Ward will be in. This is why Owens is out. There really is not logical argument than the voters taking it personal.

I disagree Warner got in because he was a nice guy. I made his HOF resume argument earlier in the thread, but I think Hines Ward will eventually get in because:

-He was a key player and a team leader on a number of successful teams in Pittsburgh.
-While he wasn't the deep threat receiver type like Moss/TO/Chad 85, he was a dependable clutch receiver more of a Marvin Harrison.
-Six seasons over 80 receptions, four seasons over 90 catches, and caught 112 receptions in 2002.
-Six seasons over 1,000 yards receiving, twice finished with 975 yards receiving.
-14th in career receptions (1000), 23rd career receiving yards (12,083), 15th career receiving TD's (86)
-Four All-Pro's

He'll get in eventually, probably in the later years of his candidacy.

Ness wrote:

JWL wrote:

On page 1 of this thread (you can look it up), I advocated Owens for induction.

He got kicked off a team for crying out loud.

Look, there is no way he will not eventually get in, so it is sort of cool he gets to stew for a while.

As for Andersen, yes, different era. You kind of have to compare his stats to players in his era. If you don't do that, then guys like Jan Stenerud, Bobby Layne, Joe Namath, Doak Walker, and Charlie Sanders could be made to look like pieces of crap depending upon what stats you look at.

The explicit guidelines advocated by the Vice President of the HOF, Joe Horrigan, says that players should be recognized for their own the field achievements only. The voters are making it about themselves and who they think is a "nice guy". Which is why Warner is in. And why Hines Ward will be in. This is why Owens is out. There really is not logical argument than the voters taking it personal.

I think what Owens did with the Eagles during the 2005 season is why he is waiting. I don't think it is anything else.

I would have put all 3 in but it's worth noting that 3 of the 5 modern work for NFL Network.

Makes for a good conspiracy theory, plus at worst it probably didn't hurt and at best it helped them get in.

Some thoughts about next year.

While there are six players who are likely to get in the HoF sooner or later (Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Richard Seymour, Brian Urlacher, Steve Hutchinson, Ronde Barber), only Lewis and perhaps Moss run the likelihood of being first ballot. And Moss's chances will depend on how badly they discount his baggage -- the voters may be very reluctant to make him first ballot given his quitting on the Raiders mid-career. This group strikes me a lot like that of 2015, when Seau, Law, Warner, Pace, Holt, Bruce, and Mawae became eligible but only Seau went in first ballot.

Who else makes it in besides Lewis at this point is anyone's guess. Law/Lynch/Dawkins, Mawae/Jacoby/Boselli/Faneca, and TO/Bruce look like logjams in the making. At this juncture, any of these folks could break through and I'm pretty hard pressed to guess which. It would be better if they sneak Jacoby though in his last eligible year rather than toss him in the Senior pool, but his regressing out of the top 10 makes that likelihood more remote.

We shall see.

I'm not thrilled about this class, outside of LDT.
Kurt Warner and Jason Taylor are deserving, but Faneca, Mawae, and Dawkins were considered amongst the very best at their positions for longer periods of time.

Morten Andersen is as deserving as any kicker. I've seen complaints about his lacking a signature kick, outside of the 39 yarder to put Atlanta in the Super Bowl. They forget about his 49 yard game winner in 1988 to break the Saints' 17 year drought against Dallas.

I disagree with Terrell Davis' election. He had a brilliant stretch, but the brevity of his career, combined with the incredible stretch of production from a stable of Denver runners, convinced me he doesn't belong. Gale Sayers is a frequent comparison, but Sayers did things that no back had ever done. Davis did thingsome that a number of backs could do, and did. Now, Gary, Anderson, Portis, Bell, Droughns... none of them hit 2000 yards, or delivered MVP performances in the post-season, but none of them had Elway either.

Jerry Jones... no.

bachslunch wrote:Some thoughts about next year.

While there are six players who are likely to get in the HoF sooner or later (Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Richard Seymour, Brian Urlacher, Steve Hutchinson, Ronde Barber), only Lewis and perhaps Moss run the likelihood of being first ballot.
We shall see.

I don't know about Barber, he was NEVER the best Corner in the game, picked off 47 passes in 16 years (3 per season), 3/5/90's 2nd (probably his strongest case), and was a cover 2 corner which just doesn't carry the responsibility of say a Ty Law. By way of comparison Ty Law could have been the best Corner a handful of seasons as Deion started to slough off 1998, 2003 come to mind, picked off 53 in 15 years, 2/4/90's 2nd, and was an excellent corner in a number of different schemes, an excellent tackler, etc. By passer rating allowed Law was 10 points better, not a small difference.

conace21 wrote:Morten Andersen is as deserving as any kicker. I've seen complaints about his lacking a signature kick, outside of the 39 yarder to put Atlanta in the Super Bowl. They forget about his 49 yard game winner in 1988 to break the Saints' 17 year drought against Dallas.

The signature moments that came to my mind were the NFCCG and the 31-yard miss (and hilarious fall) that put the Jaguars in the playoffs in '96.

conace21 wrote:I'm not thrilled about this class, outside of LDT.

I disagree with Terrell Davis' election. He had a brilliant stretch, but the brevity of his career, combined with the incredible stretch of production from a stable of Denver runners, convinced me he doesn't belong. Gale Sayers is a frequent comparison, but Sayers did things that no back had ever done. Davis did thingsome that a number of backs could do, and did. Now, Gary, Anderson, Portis, Bell, Droughns... none of them hit 2000 yards, or delivered MVP performances in the post-season, but none of them had Elway either.

Jerry Jones... no.

I'm with you on Davis. As you point out, he was one in a string of Denver runners who put up great numbers for Shanahan. Clinton Portis twice averaged 5.5 yards a carry running in the Shanahan-Gibbs system. Davis was a good runner, but his big numbers were primarily a product of the system, not his ability.

Reaser wrote:

conace21 wrote:Morten Andersen is as deserving as any kicker. I've seen complaints about his lacking a signature kick, outside of the 39 yarder to put Atlanta in the Super Bowl. They forget about his 49 yard game winner in 1988 to break the Saints' 17 year drought against Dallas.

The signature moments that came to my mind were the NFCCG and the 31-yard miss (and hilarious fall) that put the Jaguars in the playoffs in '96.

One impressive (though hardly signature) moment came in 1984, when he kicked a 54-yard FG in Cleveland as time expired to win the game. Few remember it because the win came against the Browns, who dropped to 1-8--though it was Marty Schottenheimer's first game as a HC.

rhickok1109 wrote:

conace21 wrote:I'm not thrilled about this class, outside of LDT.

I disagree with Terrell Davis' election. He had a brilliant stretch, but the brevity of his career, combined with the incredible stretch of production from a stable of Denver runners, convinced me he doesn't belong. Gale Sayers is a frequent comparison, but Sayers did things that no back had ever done. Davis did thingsome that a number of backs could do, and did. Now, Gary, Anderson, Portis, Bell, Droughns... none of them hit 2000 yards, or delivered MVP performances in the post-season, but none of them had Elway either.

Jerry Jones... no.

I'm with you on Davis. As you point out, he was one in a string of Denver runners who put up great numbers for Shanahan. Clinton Portis twice averaged 5.5 yards a carry running in the Shanahan-Gibbs system. Davis was a good runner, but his big numbers were primarily a product of the system, not his ability.

With the system Shanahan had in Denver in the late 90's early 00's, they seemingly had a perpetual 1,000 yard rusher every year after Davis was injured in 1999, but Davis put up numbers in 1996-98 like none of his predecessors did, and that could have been do to standing next to Number 7 in the backfield. Normally, when I apply the "short but brilliant career" argument for the Hall of Fame, it is for guys like Sayers, Butkus, Earl Campbell, Namath who were unique players who watching them, you got the sense you knew you would never see another player quite like them again. (And I would also add John Madden to this list too, as a coach.)

I don't think Davis was that unique, but what he did from 1995-98, and coming back from a serious knee injury to have another 1,000 yard season before blowing out the other knee to end his career, was very impressive. He was clearly the guy who put the Broncos over the top; without him they would not have won two Super Bowls. He dealt with the most famous migraine in sports history to score three short TD's and in the worst part of the migraine where he could hardly see, he went out there and served as a decoy on a short TD run by Elway. (On a side note, I suffer from migraines pretty bad at times and have no idea how he coped with it in the middle of that environment. It makes me respect his performance all the more.)

All in all, I think his monster seasons in 1997 and 1998, plus the "short but brilliant" argument, plus the Super Bowl MVP, plus being the guy who put two rings on John Elways hand, was enough to put him into the Hall of Fame. I would have voted for Davis; I am happy to see him there.