Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

TanksAndSpartans wrote:

JameisLoseston wrote:Does it mean he was just that good in an era when passing was incredibly hard? Or does it mean he was about as good as Baugh/Luckman, in an era when passing was equally difficult as Baugh/Luckman's era, but no one else had figured out how to be good at it yet except Friedman? What's your opinion?

Oh, and I'd love to hear about how dominant Thorpe was. Even jt-sw only has pedestrian stats from the tail end of his career to show; how was he in the Ohio league?

Rupert has posted a lot on his QB research, maybe he will jump in, not my area.

For a Thorpe primer with statistics, check out Bob's article: http://www.profootballresearchers.org/a ... 02-396.pdf

As far as considering Nagurski as a pure runner, if that's actually a stated criteria of this thing, I think it's terrible - I assumed it was implicit that if a player is being considered then everything the player did should be considered - block, play defensive, kick, whatever.

I wouldn't call that dominant, because in most of the games some other player was doing similar things to Thorpe, but I'd easily call him the most consistent player in the league. A catch, of course, is that all the guys he's being compared to played in far less games than him; he seemed to switch committee-mates every year, and they combined for similar production to him. I think I was most fascinated by their highly inconsistent QB Milt Ghee; how was he so up and down?

TanksAndSpartans wrote:
I'm surprised he was even nominated looking at the 50 yr team, 75 yr team,

Remember there was an All-time two-way team for the 75th, so that took a lot of guys out of the pre-WWII era--so none save Baugh and Hein
were on the 75th team

I think they could have done the same this time, but they wanted to do the 100 for 100 thing...so we got this.

JameisLoseston wrote:Assuming that they are well recorded, however, the mid 20s-31 stats from jt-sw.com also seem to be mostly complete from what I'm finding, at least for passing. I recently did some compiling of 1927-34 league passing stats for the purpose of era-adjusted Friedman analysis, and many of the 27-31 years actually have higher counting stats leaguewide than 32-34, so they don't seem to be missing much if anything. I'm not sure if rushing stats are more difficult to find in full.

Oh, and spoiler, Friedman thus far is grading out to be the best QB in NFL history, if you compare him only against 27-34 passers. For example, I found one article that proposes a "dominance rating" that measures how far above the league average a QB was during their career in each of the 4 passer-rating factors. I ran Friedman through the formula and he rates an even 196, by far the highest in the history of football; Otto Graham is next with a little over 157, and 100 is league average. Using passer rating itself, Friedman's career is 73.2, and the 27-34 total is 33.2. He was literally twice as good as everyone else. These numbers definitely mean something, but I don't know what exactly. Does it mean he was just that good in an era when passing was incredibly hard? Or does it mean he was about as good as Baugh/Luckman, in an era when passing was equally difficult as Baugh/Luckman's era, but no one else had figured out how to be good at it yet except Friedman? What's your opinion?

My opinion is that Friedman was indeed further above his contemporaries than any other passer in NFL history. Whether he was as good as Baugh and Luckman, I don't know, but I'm almost certain that by the late 1930s the league had quite a few more quality passers than in Friedman's era, so of course it was harder for anybody to stand out as much as he did.

Just as important, I think your source for 1920-31 information is misleading you about statistics for that time. The stats we do have were compiled by David Neft, who made an exhaustive search of newspaper accounts for this entire era. Virtually nothing is complete, though. Just to take Friedman, for example: from 1927-31 he played in 61 games, and his stats are complete for 42 of them, not quite 70 percent. Most players' records -- Ernie Nevers, for instance -- are far less complete than that. It's ridiculous to compile passer ratings based on such incomplete records. To do so, you'd have to combine "complete" games with partial stats from articles about other games, which isn't reasonable at all.

If you want a reliable source for 1920s stats, get a copy of The Football Encyclopedia (by Neft and others) from the early 1990s. There you'll get an accurate picture of what's available and what's not. As far as I know, no other source is reliable.

JameisLoseston wrote:I wouldn't call that dominant, because in most of the games some other player was doing similar things to Thorpe, but I'd easily call him the most consistent player in the league. A catch, of course, is that all the guys he's being compared to played in far less games than him; he seemed to switch committee-mates every year, and they combined for similar production to him. I think I was most fascinated by their highly inconsistent QB Milt Ghee; how was he so up and down?

That's an amazing misreading of Thorpe's stats from the teens. His teammates combined for "similar production"? From the 14 play-by-play accounts available, Thorpe averaged 4.9 yards per carry, while all the other backs on his teams, running behind the same line, combined to average 2.8. Thorpe's average per carry is 75 PERCENT higher, and that's "similar"?

Thorpe averaged 40.7 yards per punt; everybody else on his team combined to average 31.2, and the other teams' punters averaged 34.3. So Thorpe is averaging at least 6 yards more per punt, and that's similar?

Thorpe was head and shoulders above everybody else in that era. That's what the old-timers always said, and the stats confirm it.

Bob, glad you helped out on Thorpe.

JohnTurney wrote: Remember there was an All-time two-way team for the 75th, so that took a lot of guys out of the pre-WWII era--so none save Baugh and Hein
were on the 75th team
I think they could have done the same this time, but they wanted to do the 100 for 100 thing...so we got this.

John, thanks - I completely forgot about that team - proves I was wrong - they did know who Dutch Clark was The funny thing about it though is if someone posted it on the board, a bunch of us would probably jump in and comment on some of the choices not being great in terms of choosing players who actually excelled on both sides of the ball during the same seasons for a sustained period.

Sammy Baugh
Chuck Bednarik
Earl "Dutch" Clark
George Connor
Dan Fortmann
Mel Hein
Wilbur "Pete" Henry
Bill Hewitt
Clarke Hinkle
Cal Hubbard
Don Hutson
George McAfee
Marion Motley
George Musso
Bronko Nagurski
Ernie Nevers
Pete Pihos
Joe Stydahar
Steve Van Buren

JameisLoseston wrote:I think I was most fascinated by their highly inconsistent QB Milt Ghee; how was he so up and down?

I developed some criteria to look at the immediate pre-NFL period and wound up taking Milt Ghee as my QB. Subjectively, I wanted Al Mahrt or Gus Dorais, but Ghee edged them out. Without getting into details, I would say contemporary opinion may have been Ghee - he did multiple things well - in one big game, I recall a key interception for example.

75th Anniversary All-Time Team
Chosen by a selection committee of media and league personnel in 1994.

OFFENSE
QB- Sammy Baugh
QB- Otto Graham
QB- Joe Montana
QB- Johnny Unitas
RB- Jim Brown
RB- Marion Motley
RB- Bronko Nagurski
RB- Walter Payton
RB- Gale Sayers
RB- O.J. Simpson
RB- Steve Van Buren
WR- Lance Alworth
WR- Raymond Berry
WR- Don Hutson
WR- Jerry Rice
TE- Mike Ditka
TE- Kellen Winslow
T- Roosevelt Brown
T- Forrest Gregg
T- Anthony Munoz
G- John Hannah
G- Jim Parker
G- Gene Upshaw
C- Mel Hein
C- Mike Webster

DEFENSE
DE- Deacon Jones
DE- Gino Marchetti
DE- Reggie White
DT- Joe Greene
DT- Bob Lilly
DT- Merlin Olsen
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Jack Ham
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
LB- Willie Lanier
LB- Ray Nitschke
LB- Lawrence Taylor
CB- Mel Blount
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Dick (Night Train) Lane
CB- Rod Woodson
S- Ken Houston
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Larry Wilson

SPECIAL TEAMS
P- Ray Guy
K- Jan Stenerud
PR- Billy (White Shoes) Johnson
KR- Gale Sayers


75th Anniversary All-Two-Way Team
Positions
Quarterback, Defensive Halfback, Punter- Sammy Baugh
Center, Linebacker- Chuck Bednarik
Quarterback, Defensive Halfback, Punter- Earl (Dutch) Clark
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- George Connor
Guard, Defensive Tackle- Danny Fortmann
Center, Defensive Tackle- Mel Hein
Tackle, Defensive Tackle, Punter- Wilbur (Pete) Henry
Back, Defensive Halfback- Bill Hewitt
Fullback, Linebacker, Kicker- Clarke Hinkle
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- Cal Hubbard
End, Defensive Halfback- Don Hutson
Back, Defensive Back- George McAfee
Fullback, Linebacker- Marion Motley
Guard-Tackle, Defensive Tackle- George Musso
Fullback, Linebacker- Bronko Nagurski
Halfback, Defensive Halfback- Ernie Nevers
End, Defensive Back- Pete Pihos
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- Joe Stydahar
Running Back, Defensive Back- Steve Van Buren


50th Anniversary Team
Chosen by the Hall of Fame Selection Committee in 1969.

First Team-
Quarterback- Johnny Unitas
Fullback- Jim Brown
Halfback- Jim Thorpe
Halfback-Gale Sayers
Flanker- Elroy Hirsch
Split End- Don Hutson
Tight End- John Mackey
Tackle- Cal Hubbard
Guard- Jerry Kramer
Center- Chuck Bednarik
Kicker- Lou Groza
Defensive End- Gino Marchetti
Defensive Tackle- Leo Nomellini
Linebacker- Ray Nitschke
Cornerback- Dick (Night Train) Lane
Safety- Emlen Tunnell

Second Team-
Quarterback- Sammy Baugh, Norm Van Brocklin
Fullback- Bronko Nagurski, Joe Perry
Halfback- Red Grange, Hugh McElhenny
Split End- Raymond Berry, Dante Lavelli
Tight End- Mike Ditka, Ron Kramer
Flanker- Boyd Dowler, Lenny Moore
Kicker- Ernie Nevers, Ken Strong
Offensive Tackle- Forrest Gregg, Joe Stydahar
Guard- Danny Fortmann, Jim Parker
Center- Mel Hein, Alex Wojciechowicz
Linebacker- Joe Schmidt, Bulldog Turner
Defensive End- Len Ford, Deacon Jones
Defensive Tackle- Art Donovan, Ernie Stautner
Defensive Halfback- Herb Adderley, Jack Butler
Safety- Jack Christiansen, Larry Wilson


All-Decade teams chosen by the Hall of Fame Selection Committee members.

1920s All-Decade Team
E- Guy Chamberlin
E- Lavern Dilweg
E- George Halas
T- Ed Healey
T- Wilbur (Pete) Henry
T- Cal Hubbard
T- Steve Owen
G- Hunk Anderson
G- Walt Kiesling
G- Mike Michalske
C- George Trafton
QB- Jimmy Conzelman
QB- John (Paddy) Driscoll
HB- Red Grange
HB- Joe Guyon
HB- Earl (Curly) Lambeau
HB- Jim Thorpe
FB- Ernie Nevers


1930s All-Decade Team
E- Bill Hewitt
E- Don Hutson
E- Wayne Millner
E- Gaynell Tinsley
T- George Christensen
T- Frank Cope
T- Glen (Turk) Edwards
T- Bill Lee
T- Joe Stydahar
G- Grover (Ox) Emerson
G- Dan Fortmann
G- Charles (Buckets) Goldenberg
G- Russ Letlow
C- Mel Hein
C- George Svendsen
QB- Earl (Dutch) Clark
QB- Arnie Herber
QB- Cecil Isbell
HB- Cliff Battles
HB- Johnny (Blood) McNally
HB- Beattie Feathers
HB- Alphonse (Tuffy) Leemans
HB- Ken Strong
FB- Clarke Hinkle
FB- Bronko Nagurski


1940s All-Decade Team
E- Jim Benton
E- Jack Ferrante
E- Ken Kavanaugh
E- Dante Lavelli
E- Pete Pihos
E- Mac Speedie
E- Ed Sprinkle
T- Al Blozis
T- George Connor
T- Frank (Bucko) Kilroy
T- Buford Ray
T- Vic Sears
T- Al Wistert
G- Bruno Banducci
G- Bill Edwards
G- Garrard (Buster) Ramsey
G- Bill Willis
G- Len Younce
C- Charley Brock
C- Clyde (Bulldog) Turner
C- Alex Wojciechowicz
QB- Sammy Baugh
QB- Sid Luckman
QB- Bob Waterfield
HB- Tony Canadeo
HB- Bill Dudley
HB- George McAfee
HB- Charley Trippi
HB- Steve Van Buren
HB- Byron (Whizzer) White
FB- Pat Harder
FB- Marion Motley
FB- Bill Osmanski


1950s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
E- Raymond Berry
E- Tom Fears
E- Bobby Watson
HB/E- Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch
T- Roosevelt Brown
T- Bob St. Clair
G- Dick Barwegan
G- Jim Parker
G- Dick Stanfel
C- Chuck Bednarik
QB- Otto Graham
QB- Bobby Layne
QB- Norm Van Brocklin
HB- Frank Gifford
HB- Ollie Matson
HB- Hugh McElhenny
HB- Lenny Moore
FB- Alan Ameche
FB- Joe Perry
K- Lou Groza

DEFENSE
E- Len Ford
E- Gino Marchetti
T- Art Donovan
T- Leo Nomellini
T- Ernie Stautner
LB- Joe Fortunato
LB- Bill George
LB- Sam Huff
LB- Joe Schmidt
HB- Jack Butler
HB- Dick (Night Train) Lane
S- Jack Christiansen
S- Yale Lary
S- Emlen Tunnell


1960s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
SE- Del Shofner
SE- Charley Taylor
FL- Gary Collins
FL- Boyd Dowler
TE- John Mackey
T- Bob Brown
T- Forrest Gregg
T- Ralph Neely
G- Gene Hickerson
G- Jerry Kramer
G- Howard Mudd
C- Jim Ringo
QB- Sonny Jurgensen
QB- Bart Starr
QB- Johnny Unitas
HB- John David Crow
HB- Paul Hornung
HB- Leroy Kelly
HB- Gale Sayers
FB- Jim Brown
FB- Jim Taylor
K- Jim Bakken

DEFENSE
E- Doug Atkins
E- Willie Davis
E- Deacon Jones
T- Alex Karras
T- Bob Lilly
T- Merlin Olsen
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Larry Morris
LB- Ray Nitschke
LB- Tommy Nobis
LB- Dave Robinson
CB- Herb Adderley
CB- Lem Barney
CB- Bobby Boyd
S- Eddie Meador
S- Larry Wilson
S- Willie Wood
P- Don Chandler


1970s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Harold Carmichael
WR- Drew Pearson
WR- Lynn Swann
WR- Paul Warfield
TE- Dave Casper
TE- Charlie Sanders
T- Dan Dierdorf
T- Art Shell
T- Rayfield Wright
T- Ron Yary
G- Joe DeLamielleure
G- John Hannah
G- Larry Little
G- Gene Upshaw
C- Jim Langer
C- Mike Webster
QB- Terry Bradshaw
QB- Ken Stabler
QB- Roger Staubach
RB- Earl Campbell
RB- Franco Harris
RB- Walter Payton
RB- O.J. Simpson
K- Garo Yepremian

DEFENSE
E- Carl Eller
E- L.C. Greenwood
E- Harvey Martin
E- Jack Youngblood
T- Joe Greene
T- Bob Lilly
T- Merlin Olsen
T- Alan Page
LB- Bobby Bell
LB- Robert Brazile
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Jack Ham
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
CB- Willie Brown
CB- Jimmy Johnson
CB- Roger Wehrli
CB- Louis Wright
S- Dick Anderson
S- Cliff Harris
S- Ken Houston
S- Larry Wilson
P- Ray Guy


1980s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Steve Largent
WR- James Lofton
WR- Art Monk
TE- Kellen Winslow
TE- Ozzie Newsome
T- Anthony Munoz
T- Jim Covert
T- Gary Zimmerman
T- Joe Jacoby
G- John Hannah
G- Russ Grimm
G- Bill Fralic
G- Mike Munchak
C- Dwight Stephenson
C- Mike Webster
QB- Joe Montana
QB- Dan Fouts
RB- Walter Payton
RB- Eric Dickerson
RB- Roger Craig
RB- John Riggins

DEFENSE
E- Reggie White
E- Howie Long
E- Lee Roy Selmon
E- Bruce Smith
T- Randy White
T- Dan Hampton
T- Keith Millard
T- Dave Butz
LB- Mike Singletary
LB- Lawrence Taylor
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
LB- Andre Tippett
LB- John Anderson
LB- Carl Banks
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Mel Blount
CB- Frank Minnifield
CB- Lester Hayes
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Kenny Easley
S- Deron Cherry
S- Joey Browner
S- Nolan Cromwell

SPECIALISTS
P- Sean Landeta
P- Reggie Roby
K- Morten Andersen
K- Gary Anderson
K- Eddie Murray
PR- Billy (White Shoes) Johnson
PR- John Taylor
KR- Mike Nelms
KR- Rick Upchurch

Coach- Bill Walsh
Coach- Chuck Noll


1990s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Cris Carter
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Tim Brown
WR- Michael Irvin
TE- Shannon Sharpe
TE- Ben Coates
T- William Roaf
T- Gary Zimmerman
T- Tony Boselli
T- Richmond Webb
G- Bruce Matthews
G- Randall McDaniel
G- Larry Allen
G- Steve Wisniewski
C- Dermontti Dawson
C- Mark Stepnoski
QB- John Elway
QB- Brett Favre
RB- Barry Sanders
RB- Emmitt Smith
RB- Terrell Davis
RB- Thurman Thomas

DEFENSE
E- Bruce Smith
E- Reggie White
E- Chris Doleman
E- Neil Smith
T- Cortez Kennedy
T- John Randle
T- Warren Sapp
T- Bryant Young
LB- Kevin Greene
LB- Junior Seau
LB- Derrick Thomas
LB- Cornelius Bennett
LB- Hardy Nickerson
LB- Levon Kirkland
CB- Deion Sanders
CB- Rod Woodson
CB- Darrell Green
CB- Aeneas Williams
S- Steve Atwater
S- LeRoy Butler
S- Carnell Lake
S- Ronnie Lott

SPECIALISTS
P- Darren Bennett
P- Sean Landeta
K- Morten Andersen
K- Gary Anderson
PR- Deion Sanders
PR- Mel Gray
KR- Michael Bates
KR- Mel Gray

Coach- Bill Parcells
Coach- Marv Levy

JameisLoseston wrote:I think I was most fascinated by their highly inconsistent QB Milt Ghee; how was he so up and down?

Missed this before. As for Ghee, I don't think he was much better than average as a passer -- and of course in those days average wasn't very good at all by modern standards. He had one big game in a 54-0 rout of Columbus in 1917 (12-19-1, 201 yards, 5 TDs), but Columbus was terrible that year, as the score indicates. Aside from that one, I have records for six other of his games, in which he completed 18 of 75 passes for 331 yards, with 2 TDs and 12 interceptions.

My guess is that Al Mahrt was the best passer of that era, including the first two or three years of the NFL. My impression is that he was the only one consistent enough that the team could rely on him to contribute a certain percentage of the offense on a regular basis.

Yeah, some of those guys had the odd 30 carry for 60 yard games, which Thorpe never had, consistently averaging 4-5 ypc. And he was head and shoulders above in punting. So similar is probably a mischaracterization, but he also never came close to 30 carries in a game at all. Wonder what would've happened if he did?

Find it hard to believe there's too much missing from Friedman's stats, because that would suggest he did even more than we have him down for, and, well, I mean... but unless he threw 6 picks in all those missing games, all it would do is help his case anyways.

Anyways, when are the coaches revealed?

How did Dan Marino not make an all-decade team???