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Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:47 pm
by Ronfitch
PFHOFlover wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:15 pm
Why wasn’t the Pro Football Hall of Fame founded until 1963
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
But if they had built it earlier, we wouldn’t have the great story of high schooler Alan Page working on one of the construction crews that built the hall.
Clearly, the reason is a time-traveling Alan Page.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:45 pm
by readjack
PFHOFlover wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:15 pm
Why wasn’t the Pro Football Hall of Fame founded until 1963
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
While others have addressed your first question, I'll note that a friend and colleague of mine, Kirk Buchner, launched a project last year that is ongoing in which we re-imagine the PFHOF if it started in 1946. Our first five classes:
● 1946: Red Grange, George Halas, Curly Lambeau, Fritz Pollard, Jim Thorpe
● 1947: Dutch Clark, Paddy Driscoll, Ed Healey, Cal Hubbard, Ernie Nevers
● 1948: Guy Chamberlin, Benny Friedman, Pete Henry, Duke Slater, George Trafton
● 1949: Lavvie Dilweg, Danny Fortmann, Link Lyman, Blood McNally, Bronko Nagurski
● 1950: Cliff Battles, Joe Guyon, Clarke Hinkle, Verne Lewellen, Mike Michalske
https://talkoffametwo.com/guest-columns ... -explained
We've elected Emerson and Wistert, among others who have thus far been left out. We're now into the class of 1972. I'll share the entire Hall when it's up.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:27 pm
by JameisBrownston
Do we really think Fritz Pollard would get considered in 1946? This was a time even before Jackie Robinson's MLB debut.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:40 am
by JuggernautJ
JameisBrownston wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:27 pm
Do we really think Fritz Pollard would get considered in 1946? This was a time even before Jackie Robinson's MLB debut.
Very valid point.
This reminded me of an old thread here...
viewtopic.php?p=26116#p26116
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:18 am
by TanksAndSpartans
readjack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:45 pm
● 1946: Red Grange, George Halas, Curly Lambeau, Fritz Pollard, Jim Thorpe
● 1947: Dutch Clark, Paddy Driscoll, Ed Healey, Cal Hubbard, Ernie Nevers
● 1948: Guy Chamberlin, Benny Friedman, Pete Henry, Duke Slater, George Trafton
● 1949: Lavvie Dilweg, Danny Fortmann, Link Lyman, Blood McNally, Bronko Nagurski
● 1950: Cliff Battles, Joe Guyon, Clarke Hinkle, Verne Lewellen, Mike Michalske
https://talkoffametwo.com/guest-columns ... -explained
We've elected Emerson and Wistert, among others who have thus far been left out. We're now into the class of 1972. I'll share the entire Hall when it's up.
Given a do-over, you wouldn't have to put Guyon or Healey in at all.
Hutson and Hein I think would be eligible in '50 as 1st ballot to replace Guyon. Then you could shuffle one of the others back to '47 to replace Healey.
Would you ever consider pre-NFL players? The Hall may have to start in 1925 for that
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:35 am
by readjack
TanksAndSpartans wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:18 am
Given a do-over, you wouldn't have to put Guyon or Healey in at all.
Hutson and Hein I think would be eligible in '50 as 1st ballot to replace Guyon. Then you could shuffle one of the others back to '47 to replace Healey.
Would you ever consider pre-NFL players? The Hall may have to start in 1925 for that
The flaw in the exercise is that we can't meet to discuss, and there are a lot of voters, and I'm sure some people when researching players see, "Oh, he's actually in the Hall" and are inclined to vote for him. I'm good with Healey. I didn't vote for Guyon. But I love the exercise on a whole.
Hutson and Hein were eligible in 1951 and were both first ballot.
As for pre-NFL, we do have a senior pool. Heffelfinger was class of '46, Brallier was class of '47 and Follis was class of '48.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:50 pm
by TanksAndSpartans
readjack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:35 am
The flaw in the exercise is that we can't meet to discuss, and there are a lot of voters, and I'm sure some people when researching players see, "Oh, he's actually in the Hall" and are inclined to vote for him.
That makes sense. I can see the hesitancy to kick anyone out.
I liked your list other than those two.
readjack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:35 am
As for pre-NFL, we do have a senior pool. Heffelfinger was class of '46, Brallier was class of '47 and Follis was class of '48.
I'm glad a few got in, but I wouldn't have taken those players.
Heffelfinger: I like to see a minimum of 4 seasons and if you add up all of Heff's games I don't think you get that. I know he was part of the CAA's big tour in '92 and obviously he was a ringer for the A's a few times in Pittsburgh and rumor has it he coached out West, so I'd be surprised if he didn't play some games for Denver?/Portland?/I forget which club, but I think there is a brief mention in the John McCallum book, but I couldn't find 4 seasons where he was a regular. Great player though.
Brallier: I didn't find sufficient contemporary evidence to support him being in the HOF or HOVG. He actually wasn't a regular pre-1903 (i.e. the period when the best teams were in western PA). He became a regular later when the best teams were in Ohio meaning Latrobe was playing a pretty weak schedule. And if you look at the game account for maybe their best game of that period, the '05 win over Canton, Brallier isn't mentioned. They brought in Jack Bennett from Philadelphia to play fullback. Joe Donohoe had a good game, etc. The box score mentions Brallier made the PAT, which could have been really important, but the game wound up being a shutout. Just one game, but fairly typical, just isn't evidence contemporary observers found him to be an impact player.
Follis: 1904 was his best season for Shelby but he didn't come up big in big games. Massillon shut them out 28-0. Not a huge deal since it's a team sport, but I would have needed 3 more seasons like '04 and maybe a few games where he helped his team win a title to get to HOF level.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:30 am
by Ken Crippen
TanksAndSpartans wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:50 pm
I'm glad a few got in, but I wouldn't have taken those players.
Heffelfinger: I like to see a minimum of 4 seasons and if you add up all of Heff's games I don't think you get that. I know he was part of the CAA's big tour in '92 and obviously he was a ringer for the A's a few times in Pittsburgh and rumor has it he coached out West, so I'd be surprised if he didn't play some games for Denver?/Portland?/I forget which club, but I think there is a brief mention in the John McCallum book, but I couldn't find 4 seasons where he was a regular. Great player though.
Brallier: I didn't find sufficient contemporary evidence to support him being in the HOF or HOVG. He actually wasn't a regular pre-1903 (i.e. the period when the best teams were in western PA). He became a regular later when the best teams were in Ohio meaning Latrobe was playing a pretty weak schedule. And if you look at the game account for maybe their best game of that period, the '05 win over Canton, Brallier isn't mentioned. They brought in Jack Bennett from Philadelphia to play fullback. Joe Donohoe had a good game, etc. The box score mentions Brallier made the PAT, which could have been really important, but the game wound up being a shutout. Just one game, but fairly typical, just isn't evidence contemporary observers found him to be an impact player.
Follis: 1904 was his best season for Shelby but he didn't come up big in big games. Massillon shut them out 28-0. Not a huge deal since it's a team sport, but I would have needed 3 more seasons like '04 and maybe a few games where he helped his team win a title to get to HOF level.
I would not have picked Heffelfinger, Brallier, or Follis either.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 1:35 pm
by readjack
TanksAndSpartans wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:50 pm
readjack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:35 am
The flaw in the exercise is that we can't meet to discuss, and there are a lot of voters, and I'm sure some people when researching players see, "Oh, he's actually in the Hall" and are inclined to vote for him.
That makes sense. I can see the hesitancy to kick anyone out.
I liked your list other than those two.
readjack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:35 am
As for pre-NFL, we do have a senior pool. Heffelfinger was class of '46, Brallier was class of '47 and Follis was class of '48.
I'm glad a few got in, but I wouldn't have taken those players.
Heffelfinger: I like to see a minimum of 4 seasons and if you add up all of Heff's games I don't think you get that. I know he was part of the CAA's big tour in '92 and obviously he was a ringer for the A's a few times in Pittsburgh and rumor has it he coached out West, so I'd be surprised if he didn't play some games for Denver?/Portland?/I forget which club, but I think there is a brief mention in the John McCallum book, but I couldn't find 4 seasons where he was a regular. Great player though.
Brallier: I didn't find sufficient contemporary evidence to support him being in the HOF or HOVG. He actually wasn't a regular pre-1903 (i.e. the period when the best teams were in western PA). He became a regular later when the best teams were in Ohio meaning Latrobe was playing a pretty weak schedule. And if you look at the game account for maybe their best game of that period, the '05 win over Canton, Brallier isn't mentioned. They brought in Jack Bennett from Philadelphia to play fullback. Joe Donohoe had a good game, etc. The box score mentions Brallier made the PAT, which could have been really important, but the game wound up being a shutout. Just one game, but fairly typical, just isn't evidence contemporary observers found him to be an impact player.
Follis: 1904 was his best season for Shelby but he didn't come up big in big games. Massillon shut them out 28-0. Not a huge deal since it's a team sport, but I would have needed 3 more seasons like '04 and maybe a few games where he helped his team win a title to get to HOF level.
Great breakdowns! I think we elected them more for their places in history as pioneers than for what they did on the field. The entire exercise has been a work in progress.
Re: Pro Football Hall of Fame question
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:38 pm
by TanksAndSpartans
readjack wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 1:35 pm
Great breakdowns! I think we elected them more for their places in history as pioneers than for what they did on the field. The entire exercise has been a work in progress.
Thanks. Your HOF exercise is really interesting. I like it. Great thoroughness behind the idea of having the theoretical senior committee to dig into pre-NFL. It's rare to get a chance to even talk about this stuff, so I'll take it where I can. Heff actually denied being part of pro football until the end. In the book I mentioned earlier, he even went out of his way to say no one even got expense money for the CAA tour! He'd hate the idea of being elected to the pro football HOF
I think he was the first to be paid a large some of money to play a game, but I think the Pittsburgh teams induced Westmoreland county players to play for them via "double expense money" before Heff. Even earlier, I think the real professionalization started with the AFU on the east coast although they hid it really well for almost a decade. In terms of Follis, there were black players before him, but it's very difficult to get this stuff changed. Ken put me in touch with Greg Ficery who put me in touch with a University of Pittsburgh historian who agreed with me on who Pitt's first black player was (George Neale), but it's not like they're going to correct their website or anything. Neale played around the time Heff played in Pittsburgh - the athletic clubs had no problem using current college players. And if Neale wasn't the first black pro, William Johnson probably was. He played several years later when those teams were more or less recognized as professional teams.