Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

It should only be about their football career imo. George Preston Marshall is a prime example. Granted in his time quite a few thought he was moral.
Commissioners who ignored concussions is another example.

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:13 am Whats your take on Ray Lewis, SixtiesFan? Do you feel he should have been elected to the HOF? I felt--and still feel--he was an accomplice to murder but got full legal representation and private investigators from the Ravens. His buddies got away with it in self defense but do we really know what happened that night? Did Lewis watch his friends stab two men, though his own limo driver told police--recanted on the witness stand--that he was involved in the melee, while later dumping bloody clothes?

I know the Tyrer situation is a tragedy. I just feel that the HOF should allow his induction based on their own bylaws and voting rules. Voters can easily deny him and probably will for the sake of future tourist, public relations, but they never had a problem with Lewis--or keeping OJ Simpson--and it shouldnt be a problem with Tyrer either, but we wont know until they elect him.

Tyrer shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and I'll be shocked if it happens. Ray Lewis was found not guilty and went on to play another decade without incident. OJ Simpson, let's be real, murdered his ex-wife nine years after his Hall of Fame induction, but was acquitted. Junior Seau committed suicide due to CTE, like Tyrer, only Seau never killed anyone else. Tyrer's last act in life, which is indisputable, was killing his wife, the mother of his children. There's no gray area in his case. Sure, he probably had CTE, but that's not a get out of jail free card. For as much as the NFL claims to champion women, do we really think they'll want the publicity of electing Tyrer to the Hall of Fame, regardless of his playing career accomplishments? "Well, yes, he murdered his wife, BUT he was an eight-time All-Pro." It's just not going to happen.

Oszuscik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:41 pm

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:13 am Whats your take on Ray Lewis, SixtiesFan? Do you feel he should have been elected to the HOF? I felt--and still feel--he was an accomplice to murder but got full legal representation and private investigators from the Ravens. His buddies got away with it in self defense but do we really know what happened that night? Did Lewis watch his friends stab two men, though his own limo driver told police--recanted on the witness stand--that he was involved in the melee, while later dumping bloody clothes?

I know the Tyrer situation is a tragedy. I just feel that the HOF should allow his induction based on their own bylaws and voting rules. Voters can easily deny him and probably will for the sake of future tourist, public relations, but they never had a problem with Lewis--or keeping OJ Simpson--and it shouldnt be a problem with Tyrer either, but we wont know until they elect him.

Tyrer shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and I'll be shocked if it happens. Ray Lewis was found not guilty and went on to play another decade without incident. OJ Simpson, let's be real, murdered his ex-wife nine years after his Hall of Fame induction, but was acquitted. Junior Seau committed suicide due to CTE, like Tyrer, only Seau never killed anyone else. Tyrer's last act in life, which is indisputable, was killing his wife, the mother of his children. There's no gray area in his case. Sure, he probably had CTE, but that's not a get out of jail free card. For as much as the NFL claims to champion women, do we really think they'll want the publicity of electing Tyrer to the Hall of Fame, regardless of his playing career accomplishments? "Well, yes, he murdered his wife, BUT he was an eight-time All-Pro." It's just not going to happen.

Yes, Ray Lewis was acquitted and, as you say, played another decade without incident. Jim Tyrer would have been convicted of first degree murder had he shot only his wife, and sentenced to life without parole. Would he be worthy of the HOF had he killed "only" his wife?

To repeat, the evidence is Tyrer didn't blow up on the spur of the moment, but according to his children appeared to be planning it beforehand.

SixtiesFan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 8:54 pm

Oszuscik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:41 pm

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:13 am Whats your take on Ray Lewis, SixtiesFan? Do you feel he should have been elected to the HOF? I felt--and still feel--he was an accomplice to murder but got full legal representation and private investigators from the Ravens. His buddies got away with it in self defense but do we really know what happened that night? Did Lewis watch his friends stab two men, though his own limo driver told police--recanted on the witness stand--that he was involved in the melee, while later dumping bloody clothes?

I know the Tyrer situation is a tragedy. I just feel that the HOF should allow his induction based on their own bylaws and voting rules. Voters can easily deny him and probably will for the sake of future tourist, public relations, but they never had a problem with Lewis--or keeping OJ Simpson--and it shouldnt be a problem with Tyrer either, but we wont know until they elect him.

Tyrer shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and I'll be shocked if it happens. Ray Lewis was found not guilty and went on to play another decade without incident. OJ Simpson, let's be real, murdered his ex-wife nine years after his Hall of Fame induction, but was acquitted. Junior Seau committed suicide due to CTE, like Tyrer, only Seau never killed anyone else. Tyrer's last act in life, which is indisputable, was killing his wife, the mother of his children. There's no gray area in his case. Sure, he probably had CTE, but that's not a get out of jail free card. For as much as the NFL claims to champion women, do we really think they'll want the publicity of electing Tyrer to the Hall of Fame, regardless of his playing career accomplishments? "Well, yes, he murdered his wife, BUT he was an eight-time All-Pro." It's just not going to happen.

Yes, Ray Lewis was acquitted and, as you say, played another decade without incident. Jim Tyrer would have been convicted of first degree murder had he shot only his wife, and sentenced to life without parole. Would he be worthy of the HOF had he killed "only" his wife?

To repeat, the evidence is Tyrer didn't blow up on the spur of the moment, but according to his children appeared to be planning it beforehand.

That’s an excellent point, say Tyrer murdered Martha Tyrer just as he did, only he didn’t murder himself after. He’d be in prison and there’d be zero talk of his candidacy for the Hall of Fame, so why should his suicide improve his case in any way?

Oszuscik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:41 pm

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:13 am Whats your take on Ray Lewis, SixtiesFan? Do you feel he should have been elected to the HOF? I felt--and still feel--he was an accomplice to murder but got full legal representation and private investigators from the Ravens. His buddies got away with it in self defense but do we really know what happened that night? Did Lewis watch his friends stab two men, though his own limo driver told police--recanted on the witness stand--that he was involved in the melee, while later dumping bloody clothes?

I know the Tyrer situation is a tragedy. I just feel that the HOF should allow his induction based on their own bylaws and voting rules. Voters can easily deny him and probably will for the sake of future tourist, public relations, but they never had a problem with Lewis--or keeping OJ Simpson--and it shouldnt be a problem with Tyrer either, but we wont know until they elect him.

Tyrer shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and I'll be shocked if it happens. Ray Lewis was found not guilty and went on to play another decade without incident. OJ Simpson, let's be real, murdered his ex-wife nine years after his Hall of Fame induction, but was acquitted. Junior Seau committed suicide due to CTE, like Tyrer, only Seau never killed anyone else. Tyrer's last act in life, which is indisputable, was killing his wife, the mother of his children. There's no gray area in his case. Sure, he probably had CTE, but that's not a get out of jail free card. For as much as the NFL claims to champion women, do we really think they'll want the publicity of electing Tyrer to the Hall of Fame, regardless of his playing career accomplishments? "Well, yes, he murdered his wife, BUT he was an eight-time All-Pro." It's just not going to happen.

It doesn't matter what the NFL wants, publicity-wise. They won't be electing Tyrer to Canton. 50 voters will be. They don't work for the NFL, so they have no obligation to accede to the wishes of the league.

The Hall of Fame is a completely separate entity from the National Football League. It's true that Roger Goodell and several owners are on the Board of Trustees, so they do have some official influence. But if they were concerned about someone like Tyrer getting elected, they could have changed the bylaws to allow off-field conduct to be a factor. But they didn't, so now it's up to the 50 voters.

Personally, I believe Tyrer fully deserves to be enshrined in Canton based on his playing career, and the Hall of Fame bylaws as currently written. His children have said that the man in that bedroom was not the man they knew as their father. They have all forgiven their father, and have spoken out in favor of his induction into the HOF. They are in a better position than anyone to speak out on behalf of the victim, Martha Tyrer. (And they were victims themselves. They were all.minors who suddenly became orphans, losing both parents.) Their support would quell any moral uncertainty I had regarding his election.

Look at Darren Sharper. He is probably a borderline HOF candidate but once he was found guilty of despicable acts, his name totally dropped off the HOF radar. Nobody is being removed from the HOF but people found guilty of heinous actions can be kept out.


My comment is not for or against Tyrer. I am merely pointing out if the voters don't want him in, they can keep him out. Tyrer is not a no doubt awesome player. One can at least argue against him. Where this sort of thing would be interesting is if some amazing 1st ballot type guy did something horrible shortly after retirement. Not something any of us care to find out, of course.

conace21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:48 am

Oszuscik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:41 pm

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:13 am Whats your take on Ray Lewis, SixtiesFan? Do you feel he should have been elected to the HOF? I felt--and still feel--he was an accomplice to murder but got full legal representation and private investigators from the Ravens. His buddies got away with it in self defense but do we really know what happened that night? Did Lewis watch his friends stab two men, though his own limo driver told police--recanted on the witness stand--that he was involved in the melee, while later dumping bloody clothes?

I know the Tyrer situation is a tragedy. I just feel that the HOF should allow his induction based on their own bylaws and voting rules. Voters can easily deny him and probably will for the sake of future tourist, public relations, but they never had a problem with Lewis--or keeping OJ Simpson--and it shouldnt be a problem with Tyrer either, but we wont know until they elect him.

Tyrer shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and I'll be shocked if it happens. Ray Lewis was found not guilty and went on to play another decade without incident. OJ Simpson, let's be real, murdered his ex-wife nine years after his Hall of Fame induction, but was acquitted. Junior Seau committed suicide due to CTE, like Tyrer, only Seau never killed anyone else. Tyrer's last act in life, which is indisputable, was killing his wife, the mother of his children. There's no gray area in his case. Sure, he probably had CTE, but that's not a get out of jail free card. For as much as the NFL claims to champion women, do we really think they'll want the publicity of electing Tyrer to the Hall of Fame, regardless of his playing career accomplishments? "Well, yes, he murdered his wife, BUT he was an eight-time All-Pro." It's just not going to happen.

It doesn't matter what the NFL wants, publicity-wise. They won't be electing Tyrer to Canton. 50 voters will be. They don't work for the NFL, so they have no obligation to accede to the wishes of the league.

The Hall of Fame is a completely separate entity from the National Football League. It's true that Roger Goodell and several owners are on the Board of Trustees, so they do have some official influence. But if they were concerned about someone like Tyrer getting elected, they could have changed the bylaws to allow off-field conduct to be a factor. But they didn't, so now it's up to the 50 voters.

Personally, I believe Tyrer fully deserves to be enshrined in Canton based on his playing career, and the Hall of Fame bylaws as currently written. His children have said that the man in that bedroom was not the man they knew as their father. They have all forgiven their father, and have spoken out in favor of his induction into the HOF. They are in a better position than anyone to speak out on behalf of the victim, Martha Tyrer. (And they were victims themselves. They were all.minors who suddenly became orphans, losing both parents.) Their support would quell any moral uncertainty I had regarding his election.

I'm aware that the Hall of Fame and the NFL are two separate entities. I just can't imagine that the league is keen to celebrate the career of Tyrer and shine a light on his story, and if they did have a strong preference on the matter I think it'd be naive to think that wouldn't influence the Hall's decision.

Oszuscik wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:38 pm
I'm aware that the Hall of Fame and the NFL are two separate entities. I just can't imagine that the league is keen to celebrate the career of Tyrer and shine a light on his story, and if they did have a strong preference on the matter I think it'd be naive to think that wouldn't influence the Hall's decision.

It doesn't matter whether the NFL, or the HOF, is keen to celebrate Tyrer's career. It's out of their hands. The HOF doesn't make the decision. Again, the 50 voters do. While one of the voters is a former NFL executive, Joel Bussert, the majority of voters are independent media members who are not beholden to the NFL. Indeed, in the past, most of these media members have been resoundly critical of the NFL when their jobs required it.

JameisBrownston wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2024 6:48 pm I'm curious about the particular circumstances surrounding this incident. Was Tyrer known to have been violent toward his wife or at least angry at each other in the months leading up to the murder? Was there any infidelity involved on either side that could have instigated a jealous outrage? Or did all signs indicate they were still fully committed to each other and in a happy relationship to the bitter end?

If the latter, I can see a scenario where this wasn't entirely senseless. Tyrer knew his brain was scrambled and was desperate to get rid of it, but he couldn't bear to be apart from her or watch her live on in grief without him. Therefore, the only option in his mind was to take her with him, and gamble on her not hating him forever over it. Obviously I'm not in a position to know what murder-suicide perpetrators are thinking, but it wouldn't surprise me if this is often how they convince themselves to go through with it. I'm just gonna leave that out there and back away quietly now...

Hi Jameis. This piece from Ron Borges that Frank Cooney published is the most important piece that anyone can read on Tyrer. It's the letter that Borges sent to voters and is a major part of the reason that he's advanced this far:

https://halloffootball.substack.com/p/j ... rs-insight

Overview:

* Tyrer's wife Martha brought him to a doctor in the week before the incident, and told the doctor, "There's something terribly wrong with Jim."
* Martha and the four children all noticed changes in Tyrer's behavior, including more outbursts and debilitating headaches
* The doctor asked Tyrer if he felt depressed and he said, "No, it's worse than that."
* Shortly after the murder-suicide, the four children went to counseling. Borges interviewed one of the children for this letter, the oldest one who found the bodies, and he said that after one session in counseling they didn't go back because "we had no anger toward our dad."
* That son, Brad, told Borges that they all recognized the changes in their father and that the changes were so extreme that "That was not my dad." Key paragraph from Brad Tyrer:

“My dad’s legacy is inaccurate. The thing my family has struggled with all these years is we knew long before we heard of CTE the man in that bedroom was not our dad. He was a guy who never cussed, never raised his voice, never argued with our Mom. We have always held him in high regard. The four of us went to family counseling once after it happened. We never went back because we had no anger toward our dad.”

* The doctor says he has no doubt that Tyrer had CTE
* The four children have led the push for Tyrer to get elected
* Martha's parents raised the four children
* When Martha's father died, Martha's mother had Martha's AND Jim's ashes buried with the father to keep them all together

It's a remarkable story, and one I find very compelling.

JWL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:49 am Look at Darren Sharper. He is probably a borderline HOF candidate but once he was found guilty of despicable acts, his name totally dropped off the HOF radar. Nobody is being removed from the HOF but people found guilty of heinous actions can be kept out.


My comment is not for or against Tyrer. I am merely pointing out if the voters don't want him in, they can keep him out. Tyrer is not a no doubt awesome player. One can at least argue against him. Where this sort of thing would be interesting is if some amazing 1st ballot type guy did something horrible shortly after retirement. Not something any of us care to find out, of course.

One note on Sharper: he was included on the nominees list his first two years of eligibility, which coincided with his sentencing. After backlash, the Hall stopped including him on the nominees list. As I'm sure most here know, anyone can nominate players for the Hall by emailing a list of names. A friend of mine tested a few cases, including Sharper, by nominating him, and his name was removed for the nominee list. So the Hall is keeping Sharper off.