Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

readjack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:47 pm The coaching ballot this year is going to be fascinating, with three head coaches with two rings apiece (Coughlin, Shanahan, Seifert) and one who has only one but also brought two franchises to a Super Bowl, with three total appearances (Holmgren). I would pick Clark Shaughnessy as a contributor but he feels off here. Full list: https://www.profootballhof.com/news/202 ... s-of-2025/

In any case, the discussion, right or not, about whether Eli Manning is a 1st ballot HOFer leads me to view Tom Coughlin as the clear cut #1 coaching candidate for the class of 2025. Unlike Shanahan and Seifert, Coughlin had incredible success with a second franchise, albeit his first, in Jacksonville. A head coach's impact is how his team performs, and Coughlin has two of the biggest upsets in NFL history: Jaguars-Broncos 1996 and Super Bowl XLII, both of which had Coughlin's teams as 12.5-point underdogs.

And unlike Shanahan, Seifert and Holmgren, Coughlin's Super Bowl champs were very light on individual talent. Some ways of thinking of it:

Players who would make Canton without a ring: Strahan
MVP ever: none
OPOY ever: none
DPOY ever: Strahan 2001
Pro Bowl in title season: Umenyiora '07, Manning '11, Pierre-Paul '11
1st team AP All Pro in title season: none
1st team AP All Pro ever: Strahan 4x, Umenyiora '05, Snee '08, Tuck '08, Pierre-Paul '11

Insane talent difference compared to Elway/TD/Sharpe/Atwater/Neil, Favre/Reggie/Butler, Montana/Young/Rice/Craig/Watters/Deion, etc.

Thoughts? Your choice?

74_75_78_79_ wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:02 pm
As for the topic, OP itself...

readjack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:47 pm The coaching ballot this year is going to be fascinating, with three head coaches with two rings apiece (Coughlin, Shanahan, Seifert) and one who has only one but also brought two franchises to a Super Bowl, with three total appearances (Holmgren). I would pick Clark Shaughnessy as a contributor but he feels off here. Full list: https://www.profootballhof.com/news/202 ... s-of-2025/

In any case, the discussion, right or not, about whether Eli Manning is a 1st ballot HOFer leads me to view Tom Coughlin as the clear cut #1 coaching candidate for the class of 2025. Unlike Shanahan and Seifert, Coughlin had incredible success with a second franchise, albeit his first, in Jacksonville. A head coach's impact is how his team performs, and Coughlin has two of the biggest upsets in NFL history: Jaguars-Broncos 1996 and Super Bowl XLII, both of which had Coughlin's teams as 12.5-point underdogs.

And unlike Shanahan, Seifert and Holmgren, Coughlin's Super Bowl champs were very light on individual talent. Some ways of thinking of it:

Players who would make Canton without a ring: Strahan
MVP ever: none
OPOY ever: none
DPOY ever: Strahan 2001
Pro Bowl in title season: Umenyiora '07, Manning '11, Pierre-Paul '11
1st team AP All Pro in title season: none
1st team AP All Pro ever: Strahan 4x, Umenyiora '05, Snee '08, Tuck '08, Pierre-Paul '11

Insane talent difference compared to Elway/TD/Sharpe/Atwater/Neil, Favre/Reggie/Butler, Montana/Young/Rice/Craig/Watters/Deion, etc.

Thoughts? Your choice?

That's a very solid endorsing point! Had the Giants successfully defended in 2008 as they "should" have (12-4 top-seed this time instead of 10-6 WC, beat Steelers on the road, etc), this wouldn't even be a topic because he'd already be in. 14-2 best-record-in-the-league Jags not making the SB in '99? I don't see that as an underachievement. 13-3 Titans were the deserving AFC representative, Music City Miracle or not. And Rams were the best.

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:42 pm There's no doubt about Dungy's success but I also felt he could have waited for the HOF. I feel his success as an assistant was also taken into account, though he should have won another championship with the Colts team he had. Though people laugh off what Vanderjagt said about his too-nice image, there was also truth to it as some of his players could take him for granted or underestimate him.

Whoever gets the coaching nomination this year, will their case be stronger than a deserving senior, because I wouldnt think so. Contributor as well.

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:42 pm There's no doubt about Dungy's success but I also felt he could have waited for the HOF. I feel his success as an assistant was also taken into account, though he should have won another championship with the Colts team he had. Though people laugh off what Vanderjagt said about his too-nice image, there was also truth to it as some of his players could take him for granted or underestimate him.

74_75_78_79_ wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:26 pm

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:42 pm There's no doubt about Dungy's success but I also felt he could have waited for the HOF. I feel his success as an assistant was also taken into account, though he should have won another championship with the Colts team he had. Though people laugh off what Vanderjagt said about his too-nice image, there was also truth to it as some of his players could take him for granted or underestimate him.

Yes, Peyton was lightning-quick with the "idiot kicker"/"liquored-up" counter-attack (nice-enough guy but he don't take shit), and then Vanderjagt missing that very kick in that divisional round (but, let's face it, Colts were lucky to have been in that position in the first place; Steelers deserved the win). Both #18 and Mike made up well before that very playoff-exit as well as Mike and Dungy making up (if Dungy was ever even mad at him in the first place).

But, yes, some truth to it at the time. Both were ISO winning their first real big game. And I specifically remember predicting before the '05 season that Peyton would never win-it-all. The following playoffs confirmed that only for Indy to then, the very following year, blow-up such theory of mine. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he ended up winning one! I just didn't think he could whether it'd end up his fault or not.

I don't think Dungy ever wins-it-all in Tampa Bay had he stayed on after 2001. But neither does Jon punch-in a Lombardi with TB had he been the one hired in '96. Dungy did lay the groundwork and build the basement all the way up to the 3rd-floor. He would have never finished the attic yet alone the roof had he stayed as Jon did. But he still did most of the work, at least. Jon would have done well had he hopped onboard in '96, but he wouldn't have done as well.

And had Dungy been allowed to stay in TB all the way through '08, he again still wouldn't have won a Ring, but FWIW would have made more than three more playoff berths as Jon did. JMO.

But Dungy did win-it-all in 2006, and its very argued that he helped/set-up Indy's other SB berth in 2009 under Caldwell, and that's that.

I believed I opined a while back that Holmgren had the edge over Dungy, but have changed to Dungy having the edge instead since. Holmgren's Seattle time other than 2005 not too outrageously impressive. Just the same, though, it really could go back-and-forth for its still real close.

And when it comes to great players or great coaches, I simply can't hold any executive failures they did against them as the case with Holmgren in Cleveland (and Matt Millen as well). Now if they do WELL in such a case...then give them more points. Just don't penalize them for such failures. Maybe that's wrong, but I can't help but to feel that way; JMO.

Dungy/Holmgren, and Cowher, are all close. They, basically, are joined at the hip. Even if you have your own 1-2-3 hierarchy among the trio, it basically should be either all of them come up short, or all three get in. I do place Cowher above all three even if not by much.

Cowher never really had a QB until Big Ben very late in his tenure, he having that extra SB-berth over Dungy, and...SBXL over Holmgren himself. I've said before that SBVI and SBXL should not 'decide' who is better between Landry/Shula and Cowher/Holmgren respectively. I still feel that way about the former. But have since steered away with the latter.

2005, perhaps, may be indeed the 'decider' between both Cowher & Holmgren albeit maybe too-simple/superficial reasoning (all JMHO, end of day). The simple Cowher, in the '05 divisional at RCA, gathering his troops around while Troy P's obvious INT was under review. He said, paraphrasing, that if the call doesn't go their way to not let it get to them. Still play on and move on.

Three weeks later at Pontiac, Holmgren let that early controversial no-TD/OPI call get to him thus let it spread to his players. He still was letting it gnaw at him before the half as he brought it up (the last thing he said) in an interview before running off. A weird and un-pretty Super Bowl, but I think that may have made the difference - game result and who's-better-Historically-between-both-coaches wise. Cowher never had Brett Favre. He really only ever had early Big Ben who played statistically bad in SBXL.

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If I had to pick JUST ONE candidate of the nine coaches, I would, actually, pick a coach who's not even on the list (WHY?)...

Buddy Parker.

If two? Then I'd add Arnsparger. Again with the he arguably the best DC ever and the "if LeBeau is in" and I, for obvious reasons, LOVE Dick LeBeau!!

Yes, the great endorsement opening this thread! But Coughlin...yes, he really should have won it again in '08 all Steeler-fandom aside. I've always been open to Steelers winning a rematch in a possible SB-date with NYG (and still besting the Pats had Brady not been out), but if Coughlin won in '07 & '11...WHY NOT in 2008 (losing at home to Eagles in divisional still a mystery)?? Such a strong candidate with me for those reasons already given. I'd more-than-Welcome his induction, but just a bit of 'limbo' for him to break from until ('limbo' argument for each of the other candidates as well). Numerous non-playoff campaigns starting with the last few years in Jax. And all 8 of his Giants playoff wins confined within '07 & '11.

I think Chuck Knox and Marty Schottenheimer are almost joined at the hip as far as candidacy is concerned. But Chuck may get the nod if only due to his four CCG-berths (three of them consecutive) to Marty's three. Yes, you can maybe give Marty 'credit' for the Browns' 1989 CCG-berth under Bud Carson. Neither having star QBs but Joe Montana in '93, to me, was still...Joe Montana. Yes, still an accomplishment for Marty that '93 Chiefs campaign, but Cool sure helped!