Bryan wrote:JeffreyMiller wrote:Gosh, has anyone told Marv his place in the hall is up for reconsideration?
Maybe I am being too harsh on Levy, or holding my memory of coaching the Chicago Blitz against him (Vince Evans tho). I am comparing Levy to Bud Grant, and there really isn't that much difference between the excellence of Buffalo and Minnesota. So Levy does hold his own against other HOF coaches. But I'm the guy who also argued against Hank Stram and George Allen being in the HOF; too many coaches and non-players being enshrined, IMO.
As much respect I have for him, in the past I felt to question out loud George Allen's PFHOF induction, but was afraid that the sacrilege-police would come and get me. My reasoning for simply, very respectfully, asking this would be his never having won a playoff game outside of the 1972 campaign (guess you can 'count' that '67 play-
in game vs Shula's 11-0-2 Colts). But the ultimate feather that George has in his cap is being in the same company as
Vince in that
EVERY SINGLE season that he head-coached was a
WINNING season!
All twelve of them (and his two USFL seasons were winning ones as well)! Not a few 500 seasons mixed in like Mike Tomlin, but ALL winners (still a remarkable accomplishment, just the same, for the Steeler HC). That said, and being an innovator, emphasis on special-teams, and being the DC for that '63 World Champ Bears team is what does it, so I'll still never ask.
Never really questioned Hank Stram. Perhaps too much is made of SBIV ("team of the future", or so his NFL Films mic-ed up sideline talk throughout the game seemed to convey), but an apparent 'sleeping bear' (the mighty NFL) was awaken after SBIII, they were "ready" the following year, yet Hank leads Chiefs to a lopsided victory over an otherwise superior Vikings squad anyway! Eleven out of fifteen winning seasons - '62, SBI, '68,
SBIV & '71 amongst them. If only just a few one-SB-win HCs are able to make Canton as has been the case - some inductions questionable by some - then Stram certainly should have been one of them; and
without question IMO.
rhickok1109 wrote:Reeves coached three teams and had losing records with two of them.
In 23 seasons, he averaged about 8.5 wins and 7.5 losses a season.
Doesn't look like an HOF resume to me.
Bryan wrote:Brian wolf wrote:All I was doing was wondering aloud why Levy is in the HOF but not Reeves.
Reeves inherited HOF defensive talent, while Levy and with Marchibroda coaching the offense, built a HOF collection of players on offense ... Both lost the same amount of SBs. Does Levy's Canadian championship give him the edge, voter wise ? Levy built a much better team than Reeves but with all of his team talent, didnt meet bigger expectations ...
Levy's team was the dominant team in the conference for several years. Reeves' teams seemed more like fortuitous recipients of facing off against some of the worst postseason coaches in NFL history (Schottenheimer, Glanville, Denny Green). Chuck Noll went up against Reeves' Broncos twice in the twilight of his coaching career. The first time he defeated the 13-3 Broncos in Denver with Mark Malone at QB. The second time, he was a Chuck Lanza snap away from beating the Broncos in Denver with Bubby Brister at QB and possibly the least offensive talent in NFL postseason history. Levy's teams were good, Reeves' teams were lucky. Any team with a pass rush could beat Denver in the postseason because Reeves' offense was so archaic, and if you had two weeks to prepare for their defense you could pretty much figure out what they were doing. Reeves' time in Atlanta and New York is not HOF level. If you think Reeves is a HOF coach, then you are basically enshrining him for winning in the regular season with John Elway.
Yeah, simply reading these may very well make me take back what I said previously about he needing to get in if Grant and Levy are in. This should emphasize why both are in and Reeves
isn't in. I opined a while back on another thread that Reeves and Vermeil are 'even', only to be immediately corrected by some. I agree with that correction. Vermeil (like Stram, Madden) is a very worthy HOF candidate of the one-title HCs (and, of course, Buck Shaw).
After this very recent reconsideration, Dan Reeves has a very good resume. If he does get into the PFHOF, no standing up on a soapbox. However, though I still see him as above HOVG-caliber, he IMO is much closer to that very fraternity than to Canton itself. Two road CC victories in both '86 & '98 is something worth mentioning. Burying a Favre-led 12-4 Packer team in '02 an eyebrow-raiser as well; call it his "last hurrah", if you may. And he did propel Chris Chandler to a Super Bowl. But, YES, he having Elway as his QB in the '80s clearly did help; and much more-so than Tarkenton and Kelly helped Grant and Levy respectively along with other great QBs throughout history helping their great HCs. And, albeit superficially, that very lopsided 1/31/99 defeat to that very former-QB (and former-OC) of his could add exclamation to that point.
Looking at his entire career as player, assistant (both at the School of Tom Landry), and HC, I see him as above-HOVG-caliber, but not by much. That respectfully ought to be my final conclusion.