Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:That's a great point -- the AFC West at that time was really, really tough.

Delaney's loss was indeed a tragedy and set the team back quite a bit. After that, I don't remember them having a running back of note until Okoye.

The thought of whom the 49ers may have drafted if they had the top pick is very compelling. I think Jack Thompson had set the NCAA passing record at Washington State, and Fuller had a tremendous career at Clemson. Phil Simms was part of that draft, too. Steve DeBerg was already at SF and he may have been able to beat out one of those guys -- he wasn't a bad QB. Really interesting to think about because you may be totally right -- they might have picked one of the other guys and Montana ends up somewhere else.

Wasn't Walsh really high on Simms? It's possible that he may have drafted him.

As for the Chiefs and RB's, a mistake they made was not taking OJ Anderson in the first round in 1979. Marv Levy wanted to build defense first, but Anderson would have been huge for them (as well as finding the right QB).

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:That's a great point -- the AFC West at that time was really, really tough.

Delaney's loss was indeed a tragedy and set the team back quite a bit. After that, I don't remember them having a running back of note until Okoye.

The thought of whom the 49ers may have drafted if they had the top pick is very compelling. I think Jack Thompson had set the NCAA passing record at Washington State, and Fuller had a tremendous career at Clemson. Phil Simms was part of that draft, too. Steve DeBerg was already at SF and he may have been able to beat out one of those guys -- he wasn't a bad QB. Really interesting to think about because you may be totally right -- they might have picked one of the other guys and Montana ends up somewhere else.

Herman Heard was KC's best back between the death of Delaney and the arrival of Okoye, gaining a total of 1,279 yards and scoring eight touchdowns in 1984-85. Didn't really do much for the Chiefs, since they were 14-18 in those two seasons.

I think Walsh would have chosen Fuller or possibly Simms. He likely would have passed up Thompson since he had played against Walsh's Stanford team in 78 and got outplayed by Steve Dils, who Walsh passed up--largely because he had a tendency to force the ball. Plus, Thompson was more of a deep passer, who probably didn't mesh with Walsh's philosophy.

The Packers had a shot to take Montana before the Niners, but decided they needed DL help, so they took Charles Johnson, who flopped and was cut two years later.

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:Yeah, I was recently doing a project that required looking up 4,000 yard passing seasons and admittedly shook my head when I saw Kenney's name pop up. I did not remember him having that kind of season.

Coach Levy once told me that Ralph Wilson called Lamar Hunt before Wilson hired Levy. Wilson asked why he was fired and Hunt said that he felt it was one of the biggest mistakes he ever made.

Blackledge coming out of college, he had just led Penn State to a national championship, I think. What I remember for sure is there was a lot of buzz about him in the media. That draft is one of the first that I have a fair memory of the players in college, and I while remember Marino playing at Pitt and the notion that he was an excellent quarterback, John Elway was certainly the #1 star of that draft. It seemed like (at least in my memory) that there was more talk about Blackledge than Marino after the national championship. I think Penn State was in the Sugar Bowl that year? Correct me if I'm wrong (I was 11 or 12 so my memory is a bit fuzzy about it all), but I remember they were in a big bowl game and it was a huge college football matchup for its time. Might have even been a #1 vs 2 matchup. Anyway, Penn State won with Blackledge and his stock was really high. Now, had Sherrill stayed at Pitt and they kept rolling with only 1 loss per year -- or if everybody graduates the year before after another 11-1 Pitt season -- does Marino go higher? Quite possibly.

The Penn St/Pitt rivalry (which should have NEVER stopped at all; not even with PSU joining the Big Ten in '93) was at its absolute and utter zenith in the three-straight seasons, 1980-thru-'82, that Blackledge and Marino were simultaneously their respective starting QBs. Dan's #5 ranked Panthers won the first affair over #4 PSU at Beaver Stadium en route to a final #2 overall ranking. The following year, '81, Pitt was #1 and undefeated awaiting their #11 rival who already suffered two recent defeats. Panthers open up a quick 14-0 lead, making it seem like a rout was on. A rout indeed for it would be Todd's Nittany Lions posting ALL remaining 48 points between both teams!! Pitt would experience 'consolation', FWIW, at the expense of Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, finishing #2 & #4 in the coaches' poll & AP respectively. PSU would shutdown #8 USC in the Fiesta Bowl and finish #3 in both polls.

And then the 'rubberband' match between Todd and Dan in '82! Though it was an "off" year for Marino - he finishing at only 9th in the Heisman voting as opposed to 4th from the year before - Pitt was actually 5th-ranked and 9-1 (as #2 Penn St also was) going into Beaver Stadium. They were still well into contention! Would the road team win yet again in this, may as well call it, 'playoff' game? Nope! Nittany Lions win, 19-10, en route to besting the #1 unbeaten Georgia Bulldogs in the Sugar Bowl as Pitt loses to that infamous SMU team (Dickerson/James) in the Cotton Bowl by a high yardage yet anemic final score of...7-3! Both those games in itself (Todd "besting" Dan, 2-1; and just 3 points vs SMU) had to provide for the extra artillery against Marino's draft stock.

Blackledge's time at Penn State though, upon closer view, was very senior year-heavy! His sophomore and junior year he threw a respective 13 and 14 INTs while throwing for just a respective 7 and 12 TDs! In '82, however, though he threw another 14 picks, he finally outnumbered them with 22 TDs while putting up over 2,200 yards as opposed to 1,500+ in '81 (and just 1000+ his sophomore year). Those '80s Nittany Lions seemed to have quite a knack for besting Heisman winners in bowl games! They topple both Herschel Walker and Vinny Testaverde for both their National Championships as well as Marcus Allen in the Fiesta Bowl already mentioned! But Paterno never was able to best Paul "Bear" Bryant, losing his overall series against him, 0-4! Their final meeting, indeed, being in '82 itself. It was Bear's final season. Bruce Arians was one of his assistants as well as the year prior. Bear's swan song was an "off" year by his standards, 'Bama finishing just #17th in the country with a bleh 8-4 mark. Yet, he handed PSU their only defeat in that National Championship campaign, 42-21, as well as his defense picking off Blackledge four times.

The Packers had a shot to take Montana before the Niners, but decided they needed DL help, so they took Charles Johnson, who flopped and was cut two years later.

That was when Red Cochrane (Packer scout) was throwing a fit over Montana. Red watched Joe every year that he played at Notre Dame, and was very passionate about him. He basically said that Joe just wins. Starr basically just ignored him.

Two years later, Lloyd Eaton indicated the same tendency when they drafted Rich Campbell. When they decided to take him, Lloyd (a Packer scout) basically said to Bob Harlan that Campbell couldn't play. Harlan said that he should say something, and Eaton basically said that they don't listen to him, anyway.

The Bears and Cowboys were looking at Montana as well. According to Vince Tobin, the Bears were planning on drafting Joe in the third round, and Jerry Vainisi was ready to put the pick on the board when GM Jim Finks changed his mind. He said that they had three QB's already, and no backup to Walter Payton, so they took Willie McClendon, who didn't do anything for them.

As for Dallas, he was the highest rated player on their board, but they had White and Carano along with Staubach, and Landry said that they would have had to cut Joe.

Not sure what Walsh's interest actually was, but Phil Simms likely would have been very, very good as his quarterback. Probably not all-time great like Montana, that's impossible to say. Simms might still hold the SB completion percentage record -- not sure if that's another record that Brady ended up breaking but Simms completed something like 22 out 25 passes vs Denver.

The Packers not taking Montana (I read that Zeke Bratkowski worked him out and also gave a glowing report) -- that is something that Starr publicly regretted. It's difficult to say what actually went on there because the Packer scouts who saw Montana gave excellent reports on him. My only thought is that the Packers already had Lynn Dickey so they weren't in dire need for a QB. I'm not saying that Dickey is a superstar quarterback, but he was good for his day. Good enough where people aren't going to be looking at replacing him as a huge priority on a 5-11 team (or thereabouts). And that's what made the Rich Campbell pick even more strange. Because they still had Dickey as their starter. I remember the reaction -- I grew up in Wisconsin -- and everybody was like, huh? Who is this guy?

Yes, they could have picked Ronnie Lott. Everybody mentions Ronnie Lott. Well, every team could have picked Singletary or Howie Long in round 1 and didn't. The Giants could have ended up with Lawrence Taylor AND Howie Long.

Now, Campbell was apparently highly regarded coming out of college in a draft class that didn't have many quarterbacks -- Lomax went in round 2. The next qb went in round 4. According to SI, the Cardinals were going to draft him at #5 but couldn't get him on the phone: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/24/nfl-d ... ay-packers. So, the Cardinals picked EJ Junior in Round 1 and Lomax in Round 2 -- both solid picks for them. Funny how things work out. The Cardinals pick Campbell at 5, who knows who the Packers take, and then the Cards almost surely wouldn't pick Lomax (from Portland State!) in Round 2. And I'm not trying to defend the Packers pick here -- just trying to point out how weird things can happen when people are on the clock on draft day.

Thank you for that great summary of the Pitt - Penn State rivalry, 74-75! A lot more insight as to why teams might rate Blackledge over Marino at the time. That's what's so key about looking back upon this stuff -- trying to place yourself in that exact time period. Okay, so why would anybody pick Blackledge over Marino? People's jobs are on the line on draft day. It's not like coaches/GMs aren't trying to get things right.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:What really hurt Kenney and KC-in-general was Levy wrongly getting fired,

The only player that Levy bashed (and bashed repeatedly) in his autobiography was Bill Kenney. It makes sense that Levy would have something personal against Kenney, because it didn't make sense for Steve Fuller to be playing instead of Kenney. Fuller was terrible, and arguably cost KC playoff berths in 1981 and 1982 by going 1-5 in those two seasons. Levy deserved to be fired based on his handling of the QB situation; can you imagine keeping a 4000-yard QB on your bench in favor of Steve Fuller? That ranks up there with Bill Parcells playing Scott Brunner over Phil Simms.

As for Marino, I thought the drug rumors were due to his low Wonderlic score.

In 1978 Lynn DIckey was injured all season long, and David Whitehurst started all 16 games, and in 1979 Whitehurst started 13 games (he was the opnining day starter) and Dickey 3. Was DIckey still injured? I remember that in 1978 they had rookie Dennis Sproul and veteran Bobby Douglass to back up Whitehurst, but I don't remember any of them playing in 1979 (maybe Sproul was still the 3rd QB?).

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:Not sure what Walsh's interest actually was, but Phil Simms likely would have been very, very good as his quarterback. Probably not all-time great like Montana, that's impossible to say. Simms might still hold the SB completion percentage record -- not sure if that's another record that Brady ended up breaking but Simms completed something like 22 out 25 passes vs Denver.

The Packers not taking Montana (I read that Zeke Bratkowski worked him out and also gave a glowing report) -- that is something that Starr publicly regretted. It's difficult to say what actually went on there because the Packer scouts who saw Montana gave excellent reports on him. My only thought is that the Packers already had Lynn Dickey so they weren't in dire need for a QB. I'm not saying that Dickey is a superstar quarterback, but he was good for his day. Good enough where people aren't going to be looking at replacing him as a huge priority on a 5-11 team (or thereabouts). And that's what made the Rich Campbell pick even more strange. Because they still had Dickey as their starter. I remember the reaction -- I grew up in Wisconsin -- and everybody was like, huh? Who is this guy?

Yes, they could have picked Ronnie Lott. Everybody mentions Ronnie Lott. Well, every team could have picked Singletary or Howie Long in round 1 and didn't. The Giants could have ended up with Lawrence Taylor AND Howie Long.

Now, Campbell was apparently highly regarded coming out of college in a draft class that didn't have many quarterbacks -- Lomax went in round 2. The next qb went in round 4. According to SI, the Cardinals were going to draft him at #5 but couldn't get him on the phone: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/24/nfl-d ... ay-packers. So, the Cardinals picked EJ Junior in Round 1 and Lomax in Round 2 -- both solid picks for them. Funny how things work out. The Cardinals pick Campbell at 5, who knows who the Packers take, and then the Cards almost surely wouldn't pick Lomax (from Portland State!) in Round 2. And I'm not trying to defend the Packers pick here -- just trying to point out how weird things can happen when people are on the clock on draft day.

Thank you for that great summary of the Pitt - Penn State rivalry, 74-75! A lot more insight as to why teams might rate Blackledge over Marino at the time. That's what's so key about looking back upon this stuff -- trying to place yourself in that exact time period. Okay, so why would anybody pick Blackledge over Marino? People's jobs are on the line on draft day. It's not like coaches/GMs aren't trying to get things right.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Though it was an "off" year for Marino - he finishing at only 9th in the Heisman voting as opposed to 4th from the year before -

Blackledge's time at Penn State though, upon closer view, was very senior year-heavy! His freshman and sophomore year he threw a respective 13 and 14 INTs while throwing for just a respective 7 and 12 TDs! In '82, however, though he threw another 14 picks, he finally outnumbered them with 22 TDs while putting up over 2,200 yards as opposed to 1,500+ in '81 (and just 1000+ his sophomore year).

This kind of misses the point. Marino finishing 9th in Heisman voting just shows how lazy the voters were. He didn't have an "off" year, it was a total collapse. In the same amount of passing attempts, Marino threw 20 fewer TDs his senior year with a team that was loaded with NFL talent and a preseason #1 team. Marino was supposed to take the next step in becoming one of, if not the, greatest QB in college history. Pitt was probably overrated, they were poorly coached, and the skill positions were terrible. I've watched some of those early 80's Pitt teams, and they drop half the passes Marino throws to them. If Marino had better WRs in college, he would have been incredible.

That said, if you think Blackledge was 'senior' heavy, then take a look at Marino's career without his junior season. Its middling. Even with it, Marino's career efficiency number isn't all that much better than Blackledge's. Blackledge's stats were comparable to the rest of that group, which is surprising to me because PSU QBs usually put up terrible numbers.

I just want to comment on all the QB remarks. I firmly believe the luck of where a QB ends up is almost as important as talent. Would Dan Marino have been great on the Chiefs? Probably. Would he have won or even made Super Bowls? I don't know.

A low hit that Kenny or Fuller side stepped in 1983 may have blown out a knee on Marino. Maybe Levy and Marino got on like oil and water and Marino is traded to Pittsburgh ( ). You can't just assume a great QB would be as great if his career path is changed.

Here is a fun Chiefs QB history alternate universe option.

Staubach signs with Kansas City instead of Dallas, because of this Mike Livingston is never drafted by the Chiefs, by 1971 Staubach beats out Len Dawson for the starting QB position and they beat Miami in the playoff and Dallas in the Super Bowl. Causing Bob Lilly to throw Tom Landry several feet in the air instead of his helmet. Kansas City at this point in reality as well as this scenario is in a draft slump that continued until the late 1970's. Because of that they can't protect Staubach and he retires due to injuries prior to 1974. The Chiefs swing a trade in the 1974 offseason for Terry Bradshaw since Noll has confidence in Gilliam. Bradshaw while having some good games isn't much better than Mike Livingston actually was for the Chiefs due to the Chiefs not having great offensive talent. Because Bradshaw shows enough Chiefs don't pick a QB in the first round until 1981 when they realize Bradshaw is too banged up. They pick Neil Lomax in the 1st rd and are roundly lambasted for not taking TE Willie Scott. Lomax turns into a rookie sensation and leads the Chiefs to the playoffs in 1981 thru 1990 and two Super Bowl victories in 1987-86. Marv Levy never coaches for another team.

Teo wrote:In 1978 Lynn DIckey was injured all season long, and David Whitehurst started all 16 games, and in 1979 Whitehurst started 13 games (he was the opnining day starter) and Dickey 3. Was DIckey still injured? I remember that in 1978 they had rookie Dennis Sproul and veteran Bobby Douglass to back up Whitehurst, but I don't remember any of them playing in 1979 (maybe Sproul was still the 3rd QB?).

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:Not sure what Walsh's interest actually was, but Phil Simms likely would have been very, very good as his quarterback. Probably not all-time great like Montana, that's impossible to say. Simms might still hold the SB completion percentage record -- not sure if that's another record that Brady ended up breaking but Simms completed something like 22 out 25 passes vs Denver.

The Packers not taking Montana (I read that Zeke Bratkowski worked him out and also gave a glowing report) -- that is something that Starr publicly regretted. It's difficult to say what actually went on there because the Packer scouts who saw Montana gave excellent reports on him. My only thought is that the Packers already had Lynn Dickey so they weren't in dire need for a QB. I'm not saying that Dickey is a superstar quarterback, but he was good for his day. Good enough where people aren't going to be looking at replacing him as a huge priority on a 5-11 team (or thereabouts). And that's what made the Rich Campbell pick even more strange. Because they still had Dickey as their starter. I remember the reaction -- I grew up in Wisconsin -- and everybody was like, huh? Who is this guy?



Yes, they could have picked Ronnie Lott. Everybody mentions Ronnie Lott. Well, every team could have picked Singletary or Howie Long in round 1 and didn't. The Giants could have ended up with Lawrence Taylor AND Howie Long.

Now, Campbell was apparently highly regarded coming out of college in a draft class that didn't have many quarterbacks -- Lomax went in round 2. The next qb went in round 4. According to SI, the Cardinals were going to draft him at #5 but couldn't get him on the phone: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/24/nfl-d ... ay-packers. So, the Cardinals picked EJ Junior in Round 1 and Lomax in Round 2 -- both solid picks for them. Funny how things work out. The Cardinals pick Campbell at 5, who knows who the Packers take, and then the Cards almost surely wouldn't pick Lomax (from Portland State!) in Round 2. And I'm not trying to defend the Packers pick here -- just trying to point out how weird things can happen when people are on the clock on draft day.

Thank you for that great summary of the Pitt - Penn State rivalry, 74-75! A lot more insight as to why teams might rate Blackledge over Marino at the time. That's what's so key about looking back upon this stuff -- trying to place yourself in that exact time period. Okay, so why would anybody pick Blackledge over Marino? People's jobs are on the line on draft day. It's not like coaches/GMs aren't trying to get things right.

Your memory is better than mine, Teo. I don't remember Douglass on the Packers at all, and I don't remember Sproul. I do remember Dickey having his leg broken. That's when I thought Whitehurst took over and then only played occasionally after that once Dickey recovered. In my memory bank, Dickey was pretty much the declared starter until about when Randy Wright took over. I could be wrong -- I was pretty young at the time and it was quite a few years ago. I want to say their third quarterback might have been a punter at one point? David Beverley?