Archie Manning's Saints

[Bryan]

Remember the Oilers were equally as bad in the early 70s (remember back-to-back 1-13 campaigns) before Sid Gillman got them going in the right direction followed by Bum Phillips and drafted players like Brazile an of course Earl Campbell, although they drafted and traded Hall-of-Famer Steve Largent before he played a regular season game for them.

Sid Gillman made a multitude of horrendous moves while GM of the Oilers. He traded away Ken Houston for essentially Mack Alston and Jeff Severson. Perhaps Gillman's worst move was his mishandling of the draft. The 1974 draft was one of the deepest in NFL history, and the Oilers had the 1st pick that year...yet Gillman traded away the 1st overall pick, an additional 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick and a 5th round pick for Tody Smith, Billy Parks, Al Cowlings & Alvin Haymond. Wow. The only draft pick Gillman made that had any impact was Billy Johnson. It's pretty incredible how quickly Bum Phillips turned things around considering how bare Gillman left the cupboard. Those Luv Ya Blue Oiler teams were Earl Campbell and a bunch of try-hard free agents...and it's easy to see why.

[7DnBrnc53]

Remember the Oilers were equally as bad in the early 70s (remember back-to-back 1-13 campaigns) before Sid Gillman got them going in the right direction followed by Bum Phillips and drafted players like Brazile an of course Earl Campbell, although they drafted and traded Hall-of-Famer Steve Largent before he played a regular season game for them.

Sid Gillman made a multitude of horrendous moves while GM of the Oilers. He traded away Ken Houston for essentially Mack Alston and Jeff Severson. Perhaps Gillman's worst move was his mishandling of the draft. The 1974 draft was one of the deepest in NFL history, and the Oilers had the 1st pick that year...yet Gillman traded away the 1st overall pick, an additional 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick and a 5th round pick for Tody Smith, Billy Parks, Al Cowlings & Alvin Haymond. Wow. The only draft pick Gillman made that had any impact was Billy Johnson. It's pretty incredible how quickly Bum Phillips turned things around considering how bare Gillman left the cupboard. Those Luv Ya Blue Oiler teams were Earl Campbell and a bunch of try-hard free agents...and it's easy to see why.

In the 1974 draft, Gillman's first pick (in Round 4) was Steve Manstedt (who must not have made it. I can't find him on Pro Football Reference). You know who went three picks later: John Stallworth, who would play a part in keeping Houston out of Super Bowls in the 70's (although, to be fair, the Steelers did keep the film from other teams).

It's almost like when the Dolphins passed on Thurman Thomas in the 1988 draft for mega-bust Eric Kumerow (although, that was even worse). Thomas almost single-handedly thwarted the Dolphins in the early to mid-90's.

[Jay Z]

In the 1974 draft, Gillman's first pick (in Round 4) was Steve Manstedt (who must not have made it. I can't find him on Pro Football Reference). You know who went three picks later: John Stallworth, who would play a part in keeping Houston out of Super Bowls in the 70's (although, to be fair, the Steelers did keep the film from other teams).

It's almost like when the Dolphins passed on Thurman Thomas in the 1988 draft for mega-bust Eric Kumerow (although, that was even worse). Thomas almost single-handedly thwarted the Dolphins in the early to mid-90's.

Manstedt went to the WFL for two years. In 1976 the Oilers traded him to the Redskins for a DC. He spent all of that year on IR. As he did in 1977 with the Saints. Then he retired due to a neck injury. I'm not sure if the neck injury caused him to be on IR for two years, or that was a different reason.

[Gary Najman]

The only quality draft pick by the Peterson/Gillman years that I think of was LB Gregg Bingham in the 4th round of 1973, who became a starter for twelve seasons for the Oilers.

[Gary Najman]

The first two picks of the Saints existence were strange...a FB from Alabama who the Saints planned to convert to LB, and a QB from Houston who the Saints planned to convert to DB. The early Saints drafts produced some good NFL players, they either never played for the Saints or the Saints traded these players away. The first draft also had John Gilliam and Dave Rowe, who were traded away, and Ron Widby, who played for Dallas and GB. The 1970 draft had the underrated Ken Burrough, Delles Howell, Steve Ramsey, Jim Otis, Doug Sutherland. Maybe not HOF caliber players, but all these guys definitely would have been major contributors to a team like the Saints. Their drafts during the 70's were pretty terrible, but they also had coaches who seemingly couldn't evaluate talent, either.

They had a few good draft choice on defense like Jim Merlo and Tommy Myers, who was one of my favorite safeties of the 70s, and he even played on the USFL for the Houston Gamblers. But they couldn´t build a good offensive line, even when they had Muncie, Galbreath and Chandler.

[Jay Z]

The first two picks of the Saints existence were strange...a FB from Alabama who the Saints planned to convert to LB, and a QB from Houston who the Saints planned to convert to DB. The early Saints drafts produced some good NFL players, they either never played for the Saints or the Saints traded these players away. The first draft also had John Gilliam and Dave Rowe, who were traded away, and Ron Widby, who played for Dallas and GB. The 1970 draft had the underrated Ken Burrough, Delles Howell, Steve Ramsey, Jim Otis, Doug Sutherland. Maybe not HOF caliber players, but all these guys definitely would have been major contributors to a team like the Saints. Their drafts during the 70's were pretty terrible, but they also had coaches who seemingly couldn't evaluate talent, either.

They had a few good draft choice on defense like Jim Merlo and Tommy Myers, who was one of my favorite safeties of the 70s, and he even played on the USFL for the Houston Gamblers. But they couldn´t build a good offensive line, even when they had Muncie, Galbreath and Chandler.

They only gave up 17 sacks in 1979, and had the same line for all but one game, so they had continuity, at least.

In the end, I don't think Archie Manning was any better than Brian Sipe. Maybe not as good.

It's true that Manning played fairly well in 1972, then lost Abramowicz and Parks and had to deal with some weak receivers. But he didn't do a lot to overcome his circumstances either. He had the high draft status and the "tragedy" of playing on mostly poor football teams. But even in 1979, with a lot of offensive weapons and even a consistent line, still an 8-8 record, only 15 TD passes and 20 INTs. He was good in 1978-80, but just another guy that was good for a few years.

[7DnBrnc53]

They only gave up 17 sacks in 1979, and had the same line for all but one game, so they had continuity, at least.

In the end, I don't think Archie Manning was any better than Brian Sipe. Maybe not as good.

It's true that Manning played fairly well in 1972, then lost Abramowicz and Parks and had to deal with some weak receivers. But he didn't do a lot to overcome his circumstances either. He had the high draft status and the "tragedy" of playing on mostly poor football teams. But even in 1979, with a lot of offensive weapons and even a consistent line, still an 8-8 record, only 15 TD passes and 20 INTs. He was good in 1978-80, but just another guy that was good for a few years.

Overcome? How do you overcome anything when you have a defense that was consistently in the bottom 10 in points allowed from 1971-81? Also, in that time span, the defense had only one Pro Bowler (S Tommy Myers in 1979).

It's sad that QB's like Brady and Montana get way too much credit (they were lucky to be in the right organizations with super-intelligent coaches), but if someone doesn't win a SB with no talent around him, he is a bum.

This is why you see QB's like Trubisky and Christian Ponder drafted way higher than they should have been. These moron GM's still seem to labor under the delusion that the QB does it by himself.

[Bryan]

They only gave up 17 sacks in 1979, and had the same line for all but one game,no so they had continuity, at least.

In the end, I don't think Archie Manning was any better than Brian Sipe. Maybe not as good.

It's true that Manning played fairly well in 1972, then lost Abramowicz and Parks and had to deal with some weak receivers. But he didn't do a lot to overcome his circumstances either. He had the high draft status and the "tragedy" of playing on mostly poor football teams. But even in 1979, with a lot of offensive weapons and even a consistent line, still an 8-8 record, only 15 TD passes and 20 INTs. He was good in 1978-80, but just another guy that was good for a few years.

I agree with this. Manning had a nice year in 1978, but he was very mediocre the previous 5 season. He wasn't really like Tarkenton or Greg Cook single-handedly moving his team down the field. He didn't have their consistency. If you compare Manning to his draft mates Jim Plunkett & Dan Pastorini, would you say that Manning was better than those two? I wouldn't. Plunkett and Pastorini inherited situations that were at least equally as bad as Manning's (and perhaps worse). Pastorini had the Oilers competitive from 1974 on, usually with very average talent. Plunkett had a couple decent seasons with no talent around him, then won a Super Bowl with an unremarkable Raiders team in 1980 (and another one with a remarkable Raiders team in 1983).

I think its too easy to blame Manning's career on the Saints organization. I guess its trendy to compare his situation to Terry Bradshaw's, but Bradshaw was drafted by unquestionably the worst franchise in pro football history that was coming off a 1-13 season. Sure, the Steelers built a powerhouse team, but Bradshaw was a big factor in all 4 Super Bowl seasons. He was money in the postseason. Do people really think the Steelers would have been better with Manning? Would Manning have won 5 Super Bowls in 6 seasons? Not very likely.

[SixtiesFan]

They only gave up 17 sacks in 1979, and had the same line for all but one game,no so they had continuity, at least.

In the end, I don't think Archie Manning was any better than Brian Sipe. Maybe not as good.

It's true that Manning played fairly well in 1972, then lost Abramowicz and Parks and had to deal with some weak receivers. But he didn't do a lot to overcome his circumstances either. He had the high draft status and the "tragedy" of playing on mostly poor football teams. But even in 1979, with a lot of offensive weapons and even a consistent line, still an 8-8 record, only 15 TD passes and 20 INTs. He was good in 1978-80, but just another guy that was good for a few years.

I agree with this. Manning had a nice year in 1978, but he was very mediocre the previous 5 season. He wasn't really like Tarkenton or Greg Cook single-handedly moving his team down the field. He didn't have their consistency. If you compare Manning to his draft mates Jim Plunkett & Dan Pastorini, would you say that Manning was better than those two? I wouldn't. Plunkett and Pastorini inherited situations that were at least equally as bad as Manning's (and perhaps worse). Pastorini had the Oilers competitive from 1974 on, usually with very average talent. Plunkett had a couple decent seasons with no talent around him, then won a Super Bowl with an unremarkable Raiders team in 1980 (and another one with a remarkable Raiders team in 1983).

I think its too easy to blame Manning's career on the Saints organization. I guess its trendy to compare his situation to Terry Bradshaw's, but Bradshaw was drafted by unquestionably the worst franchise in pro football history that was coming off a 1-13 season. Sure, the Steelers built a powerhouse team, but Bradshaw was a big factor in all 4 Super Bowl seasons. He was money in the postseason. Do people really think the Steelers would have been better with Manning? Would Manning have won 5 Super Bowls in 6 seasons? Not very likely.

I also agree. Remember, the Saints wanted to trade Archie Manning during the 1974 season and go with Bobby Scott the rest of the year. Had Scott not been injured during the sixth game of the season, Manning would have left the Saints.

Later in the 1974 season, Manning had an especially bad game on a Monday Night against the Steelers. I read a columnist who wrote that Archie Manning was just not a good pocket passer and wondered how much longer the Saints would go with him. A long time as it turned out.

[vikingsfan1963]

My referencing Gillman was simply as a coach. A team with back-to-back 1-13 campaigns (I know he went 1-8 in '73) improved to 7-7 in '74. I had no idea he was the GM of a period of some bad drafting decisions!