Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

What about Covert?

JohnTurney wrote:Atwater, I am ambivalent but he was only First-team All-Pro twice, never a guy who got
any AP DPOY votes. He just lowered the standard for players

To me, the mitigating thing is he does have 2 rings.

In some sense, I'd rather Atwater's rings coincide with his All-Pros. His career was kind of like Dave Parker's...Parker early on was a physical phenom and an MVP...never reaches that level again but also doesn't necessarily "fall of a cliff"...remains productive for the next decade but is also a "oh, he's still in the league?" player.

I think based on his first few years, Atwater didn't really live up to expectations for the latter half of his career. JMO.

JohnTurney wrote:

DukeSlater wrote:Atwater, as you all know, made eight Pro Bowls and was an All-Decade member.

He was not the greatest in coverage, IMO, but I have no problem with him being in Canton.

Pro Bowls with some teams are not reliable. Denver has John Lynch (late in career) and Atwater (late in career)
and Dawkins (late in career) should have had that many

Atwater, I am ambivalent but he was only First-team All-Pro twice, never a guy who got
any AP DPOY votes. He just lowered the standard for players

To me, the mitigating thing is he does have 2 rings.

John, I'm curious about how you would rate LeRoy Butler against Atwater. He had more INTs, more sacks, more fumble recoveries, a higher AV (109 to 98), and 4 All-Pro selections compared to 2 for Atwater.

Personally I do not feel Pro Bowls mean as much today because they seem like a popularity contest. In 2018, Ben Roethlisberger was the NFL's leading passer (5,200+ yards) and did not make the Pro Bowl.

I do not have any issue with the five elected to Canton. I think any of the three linemen finalists - Hutchinson, Faneca, Boselli - could have been in. Since Hutchinson is in, it's only a matter of time until the other two are in. I bet one is in next year.

Early 2021 thoughts

Peyton Manning
Charles Woodson
John Lynch
Tony Boselli or Alan Faneca

The fifth spot looks wide open and could go Richard Seymour, Zach Thomas, Calvin Johnson or a second OL.

I’d also expect Jared Allen to be the fourth first-time eligible to be a finalist. There will be at least one of this year’s semi finalists making the jump into the Final 15.

I’m going with Lynch (Top 10 this year) over Butler, who didn’t make the first 15-10 cut this time, though hopefully he can also take the next step forward in his candidacy in 2021. Next year’s game is also in Tampa so you can expect a big push in favour of Lynch.

Boselli and Butler have until 2026 to get elected as a modern era candidate. The clock is really ticking though for Sam Mills, who will drop into the Seniors pool in 2023.

sluggermatt15 wrote:I do not have any issue with the five elected to Canton. I think any of the three linemen finalists - Hutchinson, Faneca, Boselli - could have been in. Since Hutchinson is in, it's only a matter of time until the other two are in. I bet one is in next year.

Yeah, and if I had to put money on it, I would bet on Faneca. There’s of course the possibility they get inducted together, although Boselli’s short career probably keeps him out for at least one more year.

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:Atwater, I am ambivalent but he was only First-team All-Pro twice, never a guy who got
any AP DPOY votes. He just lowered the standard for players

To me, the mitigating thing is he does have 2 rings.

In some sense, I'd rather Atwater's rings coincide with his All-Pros. His career was kind of like Dave Parker's...Parker early on was a physical phenom and an MVP...never reaches that level again but also doesn't necessarily "fall of a cliff"...remains productive for the next decade but is also a "oh, he's still in the league?" player.

I think based on his first few years, Atwater didn't really live up to expectations for the latter half of his career. JMO.

Atwater and Butler were both selected as the first-team safeties for the 1990s All Decade team. As we know there has been a big push by the PFHOF voters to get the All Decade guys in. Butler is now the only one of 22 first-team selections on the 1990s All Decade team, offense or defense, not in Canton. His time will hopefully come very soon.

rhickok1109 wrote: John, I'm curious about how you would rate LeRoy Butler against Atwater. He had more INTs, more sacks, more fumble recoveries, a higher AV (109 to 98), and 4 All-Pro selections compared to 2 for Atwater.

I can tell you TJ Troup says Atwater > LeRoy Butler and he knows more about secondary play than me.

So, I take a "he knows more, but in this instance will differ"

If you ask me what safety I want for my team it's Butler. He could play corner, slot, his DC was Fritz Shurmur and all the things he did in LA and AZ he took to GB. So, Butler was the "big nickel", but he could play LB in dime.

He could blitz and actualyl "get there". And he could cover and play post safety and 1/2 field safety. Just more versatile.

though not as fast--he was like Honeybadger.

Atwater like TJ McDonald, the guy the Rams had a few years ago. Huge hitter, big body--and again, I have no huge issue with Atwater in HOF

But if you ask who I want, it would be Buter.

But if you ask TJ, who knows more, he'd say Atwater

JohnTurney wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote: John, I'm curious about how you would rate LeRoy Butler against Atwater. He had more INTs, more sacks, more fumble recoveries, a higher AV (109 to 98), and 4 All-Pro selections compared to 2 for Atwater.

I can tell you TJ Troup says Atwater > LeRoy Butler and he knows more about secondary play than me.

So, I take a "he knows more, but in this instance will differ"

If you ask me what safety I want for my team it's Butler. He could play corner, slot, his DC was Fritz Shurmur and all the things he did in LA and AZ he took to GB. So, Butler was the "big nickel", but he could play LB in dime.

He could blitz and actualyl "get there". And he could cover and play post safety and 1/2 field safety. Just more versatile.

though not as fast--he was like Honeybadger.

Atwater like TJ McDonald, the guy the Rams had a few years ago. Huge hitter, big body--and again, I have no huge issue with Atwater in HOF

But if you ask who I want, it would be Buter.

But if you ask TJ, who knows more, he'd say Atwater

I'm glad you mentioned blitzing, because Butler was one of the best blitzing defensive backs I've ever seen. I'd place him second, right behind Charles Woodson. When blitzing, both Butler and Woodson used all the techniques of a DE or OLB. They weren't dependent on surprise or sheer speed to get there.

But maybe DBs shouldn't be judge on their blitzing abilities.

boknows34 wrote:Atwater and Butler were both selected as the first-team safeties for the 1990s All Decade team. As we know there has been a big push by the PFHOF voters to get the All Decade guys in. Butler is now the only one of 22 first-team selections on the 1990s All Decade team, offense or defense, not in Canton. His time will hopefully come very soon.

Speaking of 1990s All-Decade, what do people think of the second team guys as eventual candidates? On offense, besides Boselli, I like Webb and Wisniewski. Webb has been terribly underappreciated in recent years, for some reason. Wisniewski’s reputation has severely hurt his cause when it comes to the hall, unfortunately.

On defense, I think Smith, Young, Nickerson, Bennett, and Lake all deserve consideration. Young is getting closer, of course, but the other four don’t seem to have generated much buzz. All were terrific football players.

Kirkland is nowhere close to being a HOFer and is probably the worst selection on this team (his partner in crime Greg Lloyd would have been a far better choice and may be a hall-level player as well).

Stepnoski was a solid player, but he doesn’t have a HOF-type resume, especially given that he’s dealing with the stringent standards that centers are held to. Kent Hull and Tom Nalen were better players at the position, in my opinion.

I’m unsure about Coates’ worthiness. He was good, but was he great?