Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Les Richter, Crazy Legs, Fears

Little, Terrell Davis (borderline)

Bob Gill wrote:

JWL wrote:As a Jets fan, I have heard Joe Namath, Curtis Martin, and Winston Hill do not belong. The only one who I never hear any big knocks on is Don Maynard.

I think Namath is a legitimate Hall of Famer. He was rookie of the year in 1965, got a couple of second-team all-AFL honors in 1966, got two first-team all-AFL selections in 1967, was everybody's all-AFL quarterback in 1968 (and made the only major all-pro team that included players from both leagues), and got a couple more first-team all-AFL selections in 1969. He missed most of the next TWO seasons, then in 1972 he was almost a unanimous choice as the all-pro quarterback. After missing most of yet another season in 1973, he never really bounced back to peak form. But in his six healthy seasons, he was a first-team all-AFL (or all-NFL) choice in four of them. There are quite a few quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame who can't match that.

Then there's his historical significance, given his landmark contract and the fact that he led his team to victory in one of the most important championship games ever. You can't write a history of pro football without mentioning him prominently.

Combining all this, I think it would be hard to imagine the Hall of Fame without him.

I totally agree with your assessment Mr. Gill. Namath was damaged goods before turning pro. His knees were so bad that the U.S. Army declared him unfit for military service. While Namath missed 28 regular season games between 1970 and 1973 due to injuries, it is his body of work between 1965 and 1974 that made him a Hall of Famer:

1965
- AFL Rookie of the Year (UPI, SN)
- AFL All-Star Game MVP (offense)

1966
- 2nd Team All-AFL QB (NEA)

1967
- 1st Team All-AFL QB (NEA)
- 2nd Team All-AFL QB (AP, UPI, SN)
- AFL All-Star Game Co-MVP (offense)
- First AFL/NFL QB to throw for 4,000 yards in a single season - a feat that wouldn't be equaled until Dan Fouts did it in Week 16 of the 1979 season

1968
- 1st Team QB AFL/NFL Combined All-Pro Team (unanimous)
- 1st Team All-AFL QB (unanimous)
- AFL MVP (AP, UPI, Pro FB Weekly, SN, PFWA N.Y. Chapter)
- AFL All-Star Game selection
- AFL Championship Game MVP
- Super Bowl III MVP
- N.Y. Jets Team MVP
- Hickok Belt Award Winner (Most Outstanding Pro Athlete)

1969
- 1st Team QB AFL/NFL Combined All-Pro Team (NEA)
- 1st Team All-AFL QB (NEA, Sports Illustrated, N.Y. Daily News)
- 2nd Team All-AFL QB (AP, UPI, SN, PFW)
- AFL MVP (Associated Press)
- AFL All-Star Game Selection
- N.Y. Jets Team MVP
- George Halas Award (Pro Football Writers Association)
- Selected as First Team QB on the All -Time AFL Team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame (Jan. 1970)

1972
- Consensus 1st Team All-NFL QB (NEA, Pro Football Weekly, Pro Football Writers Association)
- 2nd Team All-NFL QB (AP, Football News)
- Consensus 1st Team All-AFC QB (UPI, Pro Football Weekly, Sporting News, Newark Star-Ledger)
- NFL Pro Bowl Selection

1974
- NFL Comeback Player of the Year
- 2nd Team All-AFC QB (Newark Star-Ledger)
- N.Y. Jets Team MVP

Namath finished as the AFL's 2nd All-Time ranked passer (1970 Official AFL History manual published by the Sporting News - page 112). It was a different era when Namath played. Only 3 of the top 9 all-time AFL rated passers (Dawson, Lamonica and Flores) threw more TD's than INT's and only Namath and Len Dawson finished with completion percentages over 50% (1500 or more attempts).

Props to Pro Football Journal for selecting Namath as their Player of the Decade for the period covering 1965-75:

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... 75.html?m=

Steelers: Walt Kiesling...nice playing career, not much of a HC. I've seen the Eagle Defense attributed to him, as allegedly he came up with the scheme while co-coaching the Steagles with Greasy Neale, and then Neale used the 5-2 for the remainder of the decade. This would be about the only HOF worthy tidbit regarding Kiesling.

Packers: Paul Hornung...I think its hard to make an 'analytic' case for Hornung being HOF worthy. He is kind of like George McAfee to me. There is a great picture in Neil Leifer's book of Hornung playing against the Colts in a seemingly 'winner take all' matchup at Baltimore in 1965. Its a wide angle shot, Hornung is racing with a pass for a touchdown, the scoreboard in the background shows all the other game scores from that day, and you see CHI 61 SF 20...on Hornung's 5 TD day, he was bested by Gale Sayers scoring 6. Found that to be neat.

I honestly don’t think there are any undeserving, or even borderline, Vikings in the Hall. For the longest time, the problem was getting deserving Vikings (Eller, Krause, Tingelhoff) into the Hall.

Bob Gill wrote:

JWL wrote:As a Jets fan, I have heard Joe Namath, Curtis Martin, and Winston Hill do not belong. The only one who I never hear any big knocks on is Don Maynard.

I think Namath is a legitimate Hall of Famer.

There is no argument from me. Namath belongs as does Martin. I do agree with many that Hill is borderline. I don't feel Hill is an egregious selection, however.

JohnH19 wrote:I honestly don’t think there are any undeserving, or even borderline, Vikings in the Hall. For the longest time, the problem was getting deserving Vikings (Eller, Krause, Tingelhoff) into the Hall.

Yes. Especially Eller. Regardless of what anybody says, I think his long wait was due to his drug problems.

Bryan wrote:Steelers: Walt Kiesling...nice playing career, not much of a HC. I've seen the Eagle Defense attributed to him, as allegedly he came up with the scheme while co-coaching the Steagles with Greasy Neale, and then Neale used the 5-2 for the remainder of the decade. This would be about the only HOF worthy tidbit regarding Kiesling.

This would be my choice as well.
I honestly can't remember ever seeing my father as surprised as when I mentioned Kiesling was in the Hall.
Well, maybe that time in the hospital when he stepped on his own catheter... but that's a story for another time...

ChrisBabcock wrote:Ed DeBartolo.
I'm not too crazy about Fred Dean being in either.

Eddie D is a good choice.
I have no problem with Fred Dean being in Canton (although he certainly isn't over-qualified).
I wouldn't have T.O. in my Hall but I understand why he's in the real one.

Nobody! I'm like a Steeler or Cowboy fan … every player who ever played for my team belongs in the HOF!

Kidding!! Kidding!!

I see an esteemed fellow Bills fan cited Andre Reed as our weakest HOFer. I'm sorry but I do not share that opinion. While I am more of a "small hall" leaner, I would say that Reed is every bit as deserving as a lot of players in the hall, since it is probably over-populated to begin with. Were the hall more exclusive, he might be squeezed out, but not given the players against whom he is measured.

Give Walt Kiesling at least a little credit for his time as a coach. After all, he was brilliant enough to recognize Johnny Unitas wasn't good enough to play for the 1955 Steelers!

As a Steelers fan, I really don't feel Jerome Bettis is a hall of fame running back. He was never the NFL MVP, never led the league in rushing. All the running backs around him, with the exception of Frank Gore, are more accomplished and were superior players than The Bus.