No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as HOF

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good
JohnTurney
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by JohnTurney »

Bryan wrote:
bachslunch wrote:For me, Ken Stabler is probably the worst QB in the HoF. He’s on the short end of everything — titles (1), stats (meh), intangibles (Raider org hype, mostly), you name it. And that doesn’t even count the stuff about end of career questionable behavior. Like Floyd Little did for RBs, Stabler established a lower floor of HoF QBs. Joe Theismann, Charlie Conerly, and John Hadl are essentially the equal of Stabler in several ways (titles, stats, etc.), and I don’t really see any of them as HoFers.
I think there is an element of "subjective fame/Namathness" to Stabler's HOF resume. He played a big part in some of the best moments in NFL history (Sea of Hands, Ghost to the Post). In an era where every NFL game wasn't televised, I think casual fans saw Stabler play much moreso than a guy like Gabriel. There is name recognition. Maybe that is the weakest of HOF arguments, but IMO at least its something. I agree that Stabler is probably the worst QB in the HOF (not really sure how Warren Moon got in, either), but I am actually ok with Stabler being the 'baseline'. He does have a place in football history, FWIW.

I just don't see anything with Roman Gabriel. I think there is a significant gap between Gabriel's resume and Ken Anderson's resume. I'd have an easier time arguing for Randall Cunningham in the HOF than Gabriel.

On a side note, there was a new Medicare/Medicaid commercial on TV with Joe Namath as the spokesperson giving the line "I guarantee it!". This is in 2019. Namath clearly is still the man and worthy of being inducted into Canton.
I think you are right, Stabler is in the memory of he voters, more so than any of the 1960s guys...many of voters (and fans) came of age sometime in the 1970s. I also see that as part of reason Anderson gets a pass...

So I agree with everythign except Anderson being "a significant gap" between Anderson and Gabriel. To me, at best, they are very similar... in terms of career value but that's just my take. I could be wrong
bachslunch
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by bachslunch »

Bryan wrote:I think there is an element of "subjective fame/Namathness" to Stabler's HOF resume. He played a big part in some of the best moments in NFL history (Sea of Hands, Ghost to the Post). In an era where every NFL game wasn't televised, I think casual fans saw Stabler play much moreso than a guy like Gabriel. There is name recognition. Maybe that is the weakest of HOF arguments, but IMO at least its something. I agree that Stabler is probably the worst QB in the HOF (not really sure how Warren Moon got in, either), but I am actually ok with Stabler being the 'baseline'. He does have a place in football history, FWIW.

I just don't see anything with Roman Gabriel. I think there is a significant gap between Gabriel's resume and Ken Anderson's resume. I'd have an easier time arguing for Randall Cunningham in the HOF than Gabriel.

On a side note, there was a new Medicare/Medicaid commercial on TV with Joe Namath as the spokesperson giving the line "I guarantee it!". This is in 2019. Namath clearly is still the man and worthy of being inducted into Canton.
Honestly, I'm dubious about the "historic value" of things like Holy Roller, Sea of Hands, and Ghost to the Post. They're the type of thing I see as more Raider hype than anything else, but maybe that's just me. That their organization is arguably one of the most accomplished at planting and spreading hype only has me more skeptical. They've been systematically planting the notion that Stabler, Plunkett, Flores, Tatum, Guy, Branch, Lester Hayes, and even non-entities like Dave Dalby are legit HoFers for years and repeating it ad nauseum until it becomes accepted and unquestioned received wisdom. I only agree with Guy, Branch, and Hayes as HoFers, and add Dave Grayson to the mix (though for whatever reason, they never include him).

Agreed that if there's any QB who merits some kind of "historic" boost to his HoF argument, it's Namath. Between the SB3 win (arguably the most significant in history), the flamboyant lifestyle, his being the biggest signing coup for the AFL, and his making Nixon's Enemies List, it's pretty heady stuff.

Re Warren Moon: he's at the low end of a good stat argument for HoF QBs, plus he likely gets bonus points for breaking the color barrier for good at the position. There's probably some thinking that his NFL resume would have been even more impressive had he not had to spend some of his prime playng in the CFL. I can see the argument.
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Bryan
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by Bryan »

bachslunch wrote:Re Warren Moon: he's at the low end of a good stat argument for HoF QBs, plus he likely gets bonus points for breaking the color barrier for good at the position. There's probably some thinking that his NFL resume would have been even more impressive had he not had to spend some of his prime playng in the CFL. I can see the argument.
I can see the argument. But I'm surprised he got in because usually those arguments don't work. First ballot, too, IIRC.
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Rupert Patrick
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by Rupert Patrick »

bachslunch wrote:
Bryan wrote:I think there is an element of "subjective fame/Namathness" to Stabler's HOF resume. He played a big part in some of the best moments in NFL history (Sea of Hands, Ghost to the Post). In an era where every NFL game wasn't televised, I think casual fans saw Stabler play much moreso than a guy like Gabriel. There is name recognition. Maybe that is the weakest of HOF arguments, but IMO at least its something. I agree that Stabler is probably the worst QB in the HOF (not really sure how Warren Moon got in, either), but I am actually ok with Stabler being the 'baseline'. He does have a place in football history, FWIW.

I just don't see anything with Roman Gabriel. I think there is a significant gap between Gabriel's resume and Ken Anderson's resume. I'd have an easier time arguing for Randall Cunningham in the HOF than Gabriel.

On a side note, there was a new Medicare/Medicaid commercial on TV with Joe Namath as the spokesperson giving the line "I guarantee it!". This is in 2019. Namath clearly is still the man and worthy of being inducted into Canton.
Honestly, I'm dubious about the "historic value" of things like Holy Roller, Sea of Hands, and Ghost to the Post. They're the type of thing I see as more Raider hype than anything else, but maybe that's just me. That their organization is arguably one of the most accomplished at planting and spreading hype only has me more skeptical. They've been systematically planting the notion that Stabler, Plunkett, Flores, Tatum, Guy, Branch, Lester Hayes, and even non-entities like Dave Dalby are legit HoFers for years and repeating it ad nauseum until it becomes accepted and unquestioned received wisdom. I only agree with Guy, Branch, and Hayes as HoFers, and add Dave Grayson to the mix (though for whatever reason, they never include him).

Agreed that if there's any QB who merits some kind of "historic" boost to his HoF argument, it's Namath. Between the SB3 win (arguably the most significant in history), the flamboyant lifestyle, his being the biggest signing coup for the AFL, and his making Nixon's Enemies List, it's pretty heady stuff.

Re Warren Moon: he's at the low end of a good stat argument for HoF QBs, plus he likely gets bonus points for breaking the color barrier for good at the position. There's probably some thinking that his NFL resume would have been even more impressive had he not had to spend some of his prime playng in the CFL. I can see the argument.
The Holy Roller game was historic in that Madden and Stabler exploited a loophole in the rules book and stole a victory from the Chargers, forcing the NFL to close the loophole in the rules book. The loss for San Diego did not keep the Chargers out of the postseason in 1978. The Sea of Hands game, it could be argued, was the game of the decade of the 1970's (I personally would go with that game or the 1979 Cowboys Redskins Week 16 game or Super Bowl XIII, it's a tossup), and the Ghost to the Post game would surely make the top 10. The Raiders played in a lot of great games in the 70's, and Stabler played a key role in a lot of them. He didn't have the best career stats, but he had two really, really good years, and was one of those QB's like Bobby Layne who always found a way to win, somehow, some way. I don't have a problem with Stabler being in the HOF; he was one of the best big game QB's I ever saw.

I do believe Ken Anderson belongs in the Hall, and agree there is a significant gap between Anderson and Gabriel and everybody below Gabriel.
"Every time you lose, you die a little bit. You die inside. Not all your organs, maybe just your liver." - George Allen
bachslunch
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by bachslunch »

Rupert Patrick wrote:
bachslunch wrote:Honestly, I'm dubious about the "historic value" of things like Holy Roller, Sea of Hands, and Ghost to the Post. They're the type of thing I see as more Raider hype than anything else, but maybe that's just me. That their organization is arguably one of the most accomplished at planting and spreading hype only has me more skeptical. They've been systematically planting the notion that Stabler, Plunkett, Flores, Tatum, Guy, Branch, Lester Hayes, and even non-entities like Dave Dalby are legit HoFers for years and repeating it ad nauseum until it becomes accepted and unquestioned received wisdom. I only agree with Guy, Branch, and Hayes as HoFers, and add Dave Grayson to the mix (though for whatever reason, they never include him).
The Holy Roller game was historic in that Madden and Stabler exploited a loophole in the rules book and stole a victory from the Chargers, forcing the NFL to close the loophole in the rules book. The loss for San Diego did not keep the Chargers out of the postseason in 1978. The Sea of Hands game, it could be argued, was the game of the decade of the 1970's (I personally would go with that game or the 1979 Cowboys Redskins Week 16 game or Super Bowl XIII, it's a tossup), and the Ghost to the Post game would surely make the top 10. The Raiders played in a lot of great games in the 70's, and Stabler played a key role in a lot of them. He didn't have the best career stats, but he had two really, really good years, and was one of those QB's like Bobby Layne who always found a way to win, somehow, some way. I don't have a problem with Stabler being in the HOF; he was one of the best big game QB's I ever saw.
I guess I can see the Holy Roller game as significant from a change-of-rule standpoint. But assuming one makes the dubious "historically important" argument about games, it's kind of odd that there are so many Raider-centric ones for a franchise that doesn't even qualify as a "dynasty" as one often sees the word defined (in the SB era, Green Bay in the 60s, Pittsburgh in the 70s, San Francisco in the 80s, Dallas in the 90s, New England in the 21st century). Just saying. Eh, or maybe it's just me.
conace21
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by conace21 »

A couple notes:

Regarding the Raiders pushing for Stabler, Plunkett, Branch, et. al, for the HOF, you can take Stabler off that list... perhaps due to his feud with Al Davis. I recall reading a HOF voter was talking to Al LoCasale, Davis' right hand man. Every time the voter brought up Stabler, LoCasale would brush him off and keep talking about how great a player Jim Plunkett was.

The Raiders are a dynasty like the Cowboys were a dynasty. 20 years of sustained excellence, with only 1 or 2 years missing the playoffs.

I wouldn't credit Madden for exploiting a loophole in the rule book. He had nothing to do with it. It was entirely (un)planned by Stabler.
Reaser
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by Reaser »

Rupert Patrick wrote: The Raiders played in a lot of great games in the 70's, and Stabler played a key role in a lot of them.
Yup. And season structure, TV (as Bryan mentioned), and that it was well before forced-parity -- the period Stabler was in the playoffs with the Raiders is [arguably] the most competitive post-merger playoff era -- both qualifying for the playoffs as well as that generally it was great team v. great team once you were in the playoffs. It wasn't a bunch of above-average at best teams like now. Or one great team in a conference like you get in various periods. It was multiple great teams and they had to play eachother. All of them could have won more 'rings' if they didn't have to play eachother and the teams remembered as merely good (but still better than most playoff teams of current era) are only stuck at good because they had to play the great teams.

"Immaculate Reception", who had the 30-yard TD run to give the Raiders the lead? [didn't start and still had the HL before the HL]
"Sea of Hands"
Sugar Bear Hamilton ... who had the GW-TD run that's always shown?
"Jascha Heifetz never played a violin with more dexterity ... "
"Ghost to the Post"
Rob Lytle is the controversy that's remembered, but another memorable playoff game.

That list doesn't include when you watch anything on the 1973, 1974 and/or 1975 Super Bowl Champions you see Stabler as the opposing QB in the conference championship game.

There's a reason he is remembered. I don't think Stabler is a product of "Raiders hype", at all. Would make a little more sense to claim 1970's hype and NFL Films hype (by the time I was 7-8 years old I had seen things on the "Immaculate Reception", "Sea of Hands", "Ghost to the Post", "Holy Roller", etc numerous times each) but even that would discount the quality of the Stabler QB'd Raiders teams and the amount of memorable and important games he/they played in. It's not like they weren't in 5-straight conference championship games. The Raiders franchise didn't make that up. They did it and did it in a period that's well-documented for various reasons.
RRMarshall
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by RRMarshall »

Roman Gabriel is such an interesting case. He was one of the NFL's elite QBs from 1967-1970 winning the MVP award in 1969. He did not win a postseason game (0-2) and is on a select list of QBs to win an MVP award and not get elected to the HOF (Earl Morrall, John Brodie, Bert Jones..). Granted his Rams teams had the misfortune of having to play road games against two imposing defenses in the 1967 GB Packers and 1969 Minnesota VIkings (a game they led for 3 quarters).
One can make the argument he did not have the advantage of ever playing with a HOF player at any of the skill positions. His 1973 season with a below average Philadelphia Eagles squad saw him lead the NFL in passing yards and TDs (tied with Staubach) to help him being named Comeback Player of the Year. I remember watching him play that season and thought he looked as good as he ever did. Throwing to Harold Carmichael and Charle Young helped considerably.
His injury really curtailed his HOF credentials. One or two more good seasons and there would be a serious argument. I grew up watching him in 1969 and he really was the standard bearer for a QB that year.
rewing84
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by rewing84 »

RRMarshall wrote:Roman Gabriel is such an interesting case. He was one of the NFL's elite QBs from 1967-1970 winning the MVP award in 1969. He did not win a postseason game (0-2) and is on a select list of QBs to win an MVP award and not get elected to the HOF (Earl Morrall, John Brodie, Bert Jones..). Granted his Rams teams had the misfortune of having to play road games against two imposing defenses in the 1967 GB Packers and 1969 Minnesota VIkings (a game they led for 3 quarters).
One can make the argument he did not have the advantage of ever playing with a HOF player at any of the skill positions. His 1973 season with a below average Philadelphia Eagles squad saw him lead the NFL in passing yards and TDs (tied with Staubach) to help him being named Comeback Player of the Year. I remember watching him play that season and thought he looked as good as he ever did. Throwing to Harold Carmichael and Charle Young helped considerably.
His injury really curtailed his HOF credentials. One or two more good seasons and there would be a serious argument. I grew up watching him in 1969 and he really was the standard bearer for a QB that year.
I concur
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Rupert Patrick
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Re: No matter how hard I look, I just don't see Gabriel as H

Post by Rupert Patrick »

Reaser wrote:
Rupert Patrick wrote: The Raiders played in a lot of great games in the 70's, and Stabler played a key role in a lot of them.
Yup. And season structure, TV (as Bryan mentioned), and that it was well before forced-parity -- the period Stabler was in the playoffs with the Raiders is [arguably] the most competitive post-merger playoff era -- both qualifying for the playoffs as well as that generally it was great team v. great team once you were in the playoffs. It wasn't a bunch of above-average at best teams like now. Or one great team in a conference like you get in various periods. It was multiple great teams and they had to play eachother. All of them could have won more 'rings' if they didn't have to play eachother and the teams remembered as merely good (but still better than most playoff teams of current era) are only stuck at good because they had to play the great teams.

"Immaculate Reception", who had the 30-yard TD run to give the Raiders the lead? [didn't start and still had the HL before the HL]
"Sea of Hands"
Sugar Bear Hamilton ... who had the GW-TD run that's always shown?
"Jascha Heifetz never played a violin with more dexterity ... "
"Ghost to the Post"
Rob Lytle is the controversy that's remembered, but another memorable playoff game.

That list doesn't include when you watch anything on the 1973, 1974 and/or 1975 Super Bowl Champions you see Stabler as the opposing QB in the conference championship game.

There's a reason he is remembered. I don't think Stabler is a product of "Raiders hype", at all. Would make a little more sense to claim 1970's hype and NFL Films hype (by the time I was 7-8 years old I had seen things on the "Immaculate Reception", "Sea of Hands", "Ghost to the Post", "Holy Roller", etc numerous times each) but even that would discount the quality of the Stabler QB'd Raiders teams and the amount of memorable and important games he/they played in. It's not like they weren't in 5-straight conference championship games. The Raiders franchise didn't make that up. They did it and did it in a period that's well-documented for various reasons.
What a lot of people forget about the Immaculate Reception game is that Stabler seemingly pulled the game out, putting the Raiders ahead 7-6 with an incredible 30-yard scramble for a TD with 1:13 to play.
"Every time you lose, you die a little bit. You die inside. Not all your organs, maybe just your liver." - George Allen
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