Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

JohnH19 wrote:As I’ve said many times, Kapp was the missing ingredient in 1970 and 71. The Vikings would have won one or both of SBs 5 and 6 with Joe at the helm. He was a flat out winner everywhere he played. Check out his CFL passing stats. He could throw the ball.

Regarding Pete Liske; I don’t put much stock in QB win-loss records but Liske was 13-14-1 with Denver and Philadelphia from 1969-72. Pretty damn impressive, all things considered.

Something else about Liske: he and Adrian Burk are the only post-1950 NFL quarterbacks who later became officials (both of them back judges, that position is now called field judge). Burk threw 7 TDs in one game and worked the game when Kapp threw for 7 TDs.

Teo wrote:

JohnH19 wrote:As I’ve said many times, Kapp was the missing ingredient in 1970 and 71. The Vikings would have won one or both of SBs 5 and 6 with Joe at the helm. He was a flat out winner everywhere he played. Check out his CFL passing stats. He could throw the ball.

Regarding Pete Liske; I don’t put much stock in QB win-loss records but Liske was 13-14-1 with Denver and Philadelphia from 1969-72. Pretty damn impressive, all things considered.

Something else about Liske: he and Adrian Burk are the only post-1950 NFL quarterbacks who later became officials (both of them back judges, that position is now called field judge). Burk threw 7 TDs in one game and worked the game when Kapp threw for 7 TDs.

Dean Look played QB for the NY Titans, and was a line and side judge for many years. Look also played MLB.

I also agree that Kapp was what was missing in '70 and '71. Especially '70 since that is quite possibly the worst season ever in the merger era. Not quite as optimistic about '71 as he would've been on the back end of his career. But, Vikes could never pin down their QB issue after Kapp left until they got Tarkenton back.

Joe Kapp, much like Billy Kilmer, would not win any beauty contests for passing style but he was a tremendous competitor who inspired those around him (still the only QB to take teams to the Rose Bowl, Grey Cup & Super Bowl). Kapp was selected by Pro Football Guide, the Detroit News and the Pro Football Writers Association - New York Chapter as NFL POY in 1969. Vikings.com states that Kapp was selected 1969 NFL MVP in 5 different polls. I think he would have led Minnesota back to the Super Bowl in 1970, but 1971 would have remained the year of the Cowboys I believe.

Brief Kapp/Pete Liske CFL comparison:

Joe Kapp (1959-1966) 130 INT's / 136 TD Passes (1963 Western Conference MOP)
Peter Liske (1965-68; 1973-1975) 133 INT's / 130 TD Passes (CFL MOP 1967)

Most Seasons leading CFL in passing yards 1960's & 1970's:

Ron Lancaster (5): 1966, 1970, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1977
Joe Kapp (4): 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965
Peter Liske (3): 1967, 1968, 1974

FWIW Beckett Sports published a magazine titled, Football's Greatest Quarterbacks in the Fall of 2014. They ranked their top 25 QB's and in the second half of the magazine they named their Top 25 Pro Teams of all-time. The '69 Vikings came in at #25:

#25 - 1969 Vikings
#24 - 1986 N.Y. Giants
#23 - 1979 Steelers
#22 - 1969 Chiefs
#21 - 1968 Colts
#20 - 1955 Browns
#19 - 2004 Patriots
#18 - 1971 Cowboys
#17 - 1996 Packers
#16 - 1994 49ers
#15 - 1976 Raiders
#14 - 1977 Cowboys
#13 - 1998 Broncos
#12 - 1975 Steelers
#11 - 1991 Redskins
#10 - 1999 Rams
#9 - 1966 Packers
#8 - 2007 Patriots
#7 - 1984 49ers
#6 - 1992 Cowboys
#5 - 1978 Steelers
#4 - 1962 Packers
#3 - 1972 Dolphins
#2 - 1989 49ers
#1 - 1985 Chicago Bears

Last week Atlanta's 11alive.com published their list of the NFL's 25 greatest teams that didn't win the Super Bowl. The 1969 Vikings were ranked #7 while the '98 Vikings clocked in at number 5:

https://www.11alive.com/article/sports/ ... 71fd318444

Was Dick Westmoreland expected to be a starter for the 1970 Vikings when he was acquired? Also, why did he get cut? Injury, diminishing skills or something else?

JWL wrote:Was Dick Westmoreland expected to be a starter for the 1970 Vikings when he was acquired? Also, why did he get cut? Injury, diminishing skills or something else?

I doubt that the Vikings expected him to start. Maybe they just wanted an experienced backup. But his skills had already diminished quite a bit.

rhickok1109 wrote:

JWL wrote:Was Dick Westmoreland expected to be a starter for the 1970 Vikings when he was acquired? Also, why did he get cut? Injury, diminishing skills or something else?

I doubt that the Vikings expected him to start. Maybe they just wanted an experienced backup. But his skills had already diminished quite a bit.

Shula (who had just taken over at Miami) wasn't a big fan of the available talent in the secondary and traded him to the Vikes.

I don't think the 1969 Vikings were one of the 25 best NFL teams of all time.

Is Bud still coaching the games this team is going to play against other top teams? Then definitely not. Bud was a terrible Super Bowl coach. The worst ever, and it's not even close. Anywhere but a SB, Bud was better than many other coaches, including some who made it to the SB. In the SB? He had less than nothing. Vikings came in vanilla and back on their heels in every single SB. That's on Bud. I do not believe in "revisionist history" that pretends that certain things never happened just because we're not comfortable with looking at the flaws of the greats any more.

The Chiefs were clearly the better team in SB IV. Better special teams with Stenerud. The Chiefs came in and decided to stop Gene Washington. They shut him down completely, and Bud as usual had no answer. Vikings did nothing to take away Otis Taylor. Vikings defense was not gashed in the game, but did they play well enough to win? Not really. It was their typical SB back on their heels performance.

The game was over when it was 3-0. Vikings drive, get a couple of first downs. Bud passes up a 46 yard FG attempt so Bob Lee can make a 22 yard punt. Then the Chiefs come down and Stenerud makes a FG longer than the one Bud passed up! Says it all right there.

Jay Z wrote:The game was over when it was 3-0. Vikings drive, get a couple of first downs. Bud passes up a 46 yard FG attempt so Bob Lee can make a 22 yard punt. Then the Chiefs come down and Stenerud makes a FG longer than the one Bud passed up! Says it all right there.

Fred Cox didn't have the range to make it. He was 4 for 11 frm 40 and beyond that year.

I had a discussion once with a bigtime Raiders fan about if Darryl Lamonica hadn't banged up his throwing hand in the 1969 AFL Championship Game and they had beaten the Chiefs the Raiders would have been a better match up for the Vikings. No Stenerud to contend with, a Raiders' offense that was predicated on "the bomb" and didn't run a motion/shifting offense like the Chiefs. He made a lot of good points. We're probably talking a 14-10 game?