Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Thanks, John. Good observations, as always.

Regarding Rupert’s thoughts about punting in Denver, one of the older punters near the top of the yards-per-punt listing is Bob Scarpitto, who played six of his eight seasons with the Broncos. Probably helps explain why his average is so high.

Rupert Patrick wrote:I would have like to have seen similar graphs for Guy for Gross punting vs NFL Average, percentage of punts returned, etc. to see how he differed from Lechler. .

I did post Guy net vs NFL average . . . but not the Gross vs avg

But folks could make the basic comparison of Lechler and Guy. but there are certainly a lot more charts I could post, but I didn't think it was necessary for a thumbnail sketch of Lechler. Match his stats with what he looked like in games and it seems he was not as skilled as Hekker is now or even Roby back in the day

When a punter gives up 11 yards a punt return for his career (2 yards above league average) and his Inside the 20 to touchback ratio is 2.6 in his career and the NFL average for 2000-2017 is 3.9 and

JohnTurney wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote:I would have like to have seen similar graphs for Guy for Gross punting vs NFL Average, percentage of punts returned, etc. to see how he differed from Lechler. .

I did post Guy net vs NFL average . . . but not the Gross vs avg

But folks could make the basic comparison of Lechler and Guy. but there are certainly a lot more charts I could post, but I didn't think it was necessary for a thumbnail sketch of Lechler. Match his stats with what he looked like in games and it seems he was not as skilled as Hekker is now or even Roby back in the day

When a punter gives up 11 yards a punt return for his career (2 yards above league average) and his Inside the 20 to touchback ratio is 2.6 in his career and the NFL average for 2000-2017 is 3.9 you have to ask questions as to the effectiveness of him kicking it so long and the risks it brings.

If he had the control of Hekker or now Kern or Moorstead he'd be untouchable, bu my tastes he'd not be on my team ahead of the guys who have higher nets. Lechler is tops all-time in gross but is 20th all-time in Net.

Rankings certainly don't tell everything...and Lechler had some great years...and those will carry him through, but as the net punting era began in 1976 (when stat was invented) Guy was in the top 8 more often in net...and Lechler had several years where he was not even in top 20 in net.

I guess it's a matter of taste, he's better than Stark and Saurbraun who were the booming types, but it's the Roby-types I prefer

JohnTurney wrote:Rankings certainly don't tell everything...and Lechler had some great years...and those will carry him through, but as the net punting era began in 1976 (when stat was invented) Guy was in the top 8 more often in net...and Lechler had several years where he was not even in top 20 in net.

I guess it's a matter of taste, he's better than Stark and Saurbraun who were the booming types, but it's the Roby-types I prefer

Is there any push to have punter's net average included on PFR?

Bryan wrote: Is there any push to have punter's net average included on PFR?

No idea, it would be handy... being able to search. I have built some Excel spreadsheets that can compare what the average is to any specific punter, but it's cumbersome, basically having to cut a paste to get it done...PFR has dome some great things in their search engines. I do hope they could add net punting, touchbacks, inside the 20... then they could add in the ratios, the percentages, etc.

JohnTurney wrote:No idea, it would be handy... being able to search. I have built some Excel spreadsheets that can compare what the average is to any specific punter, but it's cumbersome, basically having to cut a paste to get it done...PFR has dome some great things in their search engines. I do hope they could add net punting, touchbacks, inside the 20... then they could add in the ratios, the percentages, etc.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a statistical representation of the fact that Donny Anderson punted 65 times in 1967 and 'allowed' 13 returns for 22 yards.

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:No idea, it would be handy... being able to search. I have built some Excel spreadsheets that can compare what the average is to any specific punter, but it's cumbersome, basically having to cut a paste to get it done...PFR has dome some great things in their search engines. I do hope they could add net punting, touchbacks, inside the 20... then they could add in the ratios, the percentages, etc.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a statistical representation of the fact that Donny Anderson punted 65 times in 1967 and 'allowed' 13 returns for 22 yards.

Exatley, have been working on it but have to go to hOF to finish


Donny Anderson punted 65 times for 2,378 yards and a 36.6 yard avg.

he had 22 inside the 20 and only 1 touchback for a net of 35.4. Eric Goska's book has the Packers stuff, but all the teams need somone like him. I have gone that what PBPs there are but need to find more.

Anyway, he kicked short and that is why his net was high, he didn't allow returns. He's the ant- Lechler/Start/Sauerbrun maybe too far in the extreme

which is why I am currently (as long as the stats hold up when I go to HOF). He had a high average and allowed fewer returns than the average Joe and had a high net, had few blocked, and allwed few TDs. Similar with Baker

JohnTurney wrote:

John, I was looking at this All-Time Net Punting leaders chart, and they all played in the 21st century. I have graphed league punting average from season to season and noticed that they have been pretty slowly but steadily increasing from 1977 to present (from about 38.5 to about 45.4). In particular, they have really shot up since 2003, from about 41.0 to about 45.4, an increase of more than a quarter yard per season. What can that uptick since 2003 be attributed to? Fewer returns, or more returners just letting it hit the ground and it rolls a little, or that they aren't aiming for the sidelines as much anymore, or is it specialized physical conditioning for the punters that is making them boot the ball further?

Rupert Patrick wrote:
John, I was looking at this All-Time Net Punting leaders chart, and they all played in the 21st century. I have graphed league punting average from season to season and noticed that they have been pretty slowly but steadily increasing from 1977 to present (from about 38.5 to about 45.4). In particular, they have really shot up since 2003, from about 41.0 to about 45.4, an increase of more than a quarter yard per season. What can that uptick since 2003 be attributed to? Fewer returns, or more returners just letting it hit the ground and it rolls a little, or that they aren't aiming for the sidelines as much anymore, or is it specialized physical conditioning for the punters that is making them boot the ball further?

Most of them are current, the big uptick, IMO, was likely coaches coaching to the stat along with it becoming more and more of a science. I would say yes, strength conditioning, guys going for the "goals" better, knowing that they want it inside the 20 without the touchbacks. I see them going to a side, but rarely ever going for the coffin corner like they used to. Also, such good athletes covering punts...because of all that there is no way to compare punters doew to the 1990s or 1980s. And 1980s guys with the 1970s, difference sensibilities of the players and coaches make too much of a difference


here are some charts to give it some context