Some of the guys on bottom kind of light on "Honors"

[Bryan]

Here is the DT HOF lsit with a few current and past DTs. Jordan is on it

I've always wondered how much impact John Steadman's campaigning had for Art Donovan. Funny that he is listed right after Warren Sapp, because I think some parallels can be drawn with the two of them. Donovan's career is odd in that the first 7 years of his career were spent on bad teams...the 1950-1952 Colts/Yanks/Texans were historically bad...yet all of Donovan's honors predated the 1958- Colts teams. But I guess if you were looking at great 1950's DTs, its a pretty short list...Nomellini, Stautner, Donovan (perhaps in that order).

Weinmeister's career is incredible. I think its more difficult for a lineman to 'stand out' than a skill position player, yet Weinmeister was basically the best DT from start to finish. The Rams' Dick Huffman had kind of the same career arc in that era, but he had an even shorter career than Weinmeister.

[bachslunch]

Haley looks better as an OLB than a DE, where his 2/5/none honors at least scrape the cutoff point of acceptable (Kevin Greene at 3/5/90s and Andre Tippett at 2/5/80s are both in), though he’s borderline at best (5 ringzz factors in too for what little that’s worth for a non-QB). Bethea made a bunch of second teams and pro bowls, though was never a first team all pro for some odd reason; my understanding is that he looks good on film, though he didn’t get in until his last year eligible, if memory serves.

[snips]Same with Bethea. Bethea, one of only 3 RDEs in HOF that played in a 3-4 defense, though hopefully, Richard Seymour will join them. Bethea did look good on film to me, anyway and Coach TJ agrees. Both when they were in a 4-3 defense and a 3-4. He stayed square, would reduce to three-technique on occasion. But it is still perplexing why he was never a first-team All-Pro. So Bethea, while a great player, seemed like quite the borderline in terms of HOF. Overall, sure, putting him in is not a big mistake or anything, but when you see the goose egg it raises reasonable questions.

As far as Haley, I disagree, I think he was far more effective as a DE in Dallas than you may be giving him credit for. In SF he as a DE maybe half the time anyway and when he was a LBer he was committed to a gap so he was in effect a stand-up DE, with some but not a lot of coverage responsibilities. In Dallas he was a guy who did get lots of pressures and maybe not the huge number of sacks. He was, when healthy, a difference-maker. The issue is how much did his health limit him?

Thanks for the reply, very interesting stuff and helpful.

Just to briefly clarify, I'm fine with Bethea being in the HoF. He may not be a top-drawer guy, but IMHO he's plenty deserving enough especially given that he looked good in film study.

I also spoke a bit misleadingly with regard to Haley. My intention was to suggest that his honors are borderline but acceptable regarding OLBs but pretty skimpy compared to other DEs. But the fact that it generated the discussion it did regarding how Haley played relative to the two positions was an unexpected bonus, and gotta say, much appreciated. Thanks!

[bachslunch]

The Rams' Dick Huffman had kind of the same career arc in that era, but he had an even shorter career than Weinmeister.

Huffman was about a jillion miles off my radar screen -- and yeah, I see your point. Four seasons, four time 1st team all pro. Pretty darned amazing.

[TanksAndSpartans]

John/Others,

Any thoughts on Norm Willey as DE? Honors are light, but I'd be interested to know if there was any film study. 8 or so sacks in one game is pretty good.

[ChrisBabcock]

8 or so sacks in one game is pretty good.

Or 17?

https://books.google.com/books?id=yV7lv ... &q&f=false

[JohnTurney]

John/Others,

Any thoughts on Norm Willey as DE? Honors are light, but I'd be interested to know if there was any film study. 8 or so sacks in one game is pretty good.

No film of that game. Best info we have is Dr Z saying he was at game and kept track of sacks. He says it was 8 with Pihos with 3 and Sears with maybe 1. I have seen different breakdowns of the other, but unoffically there were 12 sacks and Willey had 8 according to Zim

[JohnTurney]

John, any idea why it took so long to get Jordan in the HoF? His honors look competitive to other DTs, yet he failed to get elected as a regular candidate and was passed over on his first try as a Senior. Does he look bad in film study or something?

No idea on Jordan. Other than the Packer longjam/backlash thing.

Also, my chart has a couple errors in it. Lilly had on 1 ring and Culp had 1...I get in a hurry sometimes and make mistakes on these things.

[JohnTurney]

Just to briefly clarify, I'm fine with Bethea being in the HoF. He may not be a top-drawer guy, but IMHO he's plenty deserving enough especially given that he looked good in film study.

Yeah, me too, no problem, but he's just at the bottom of the list. Borderline "in" but still one of best 3-4 DEs out there in terms of playing run and playing pass. Smith, Long, Selmon, Bethea, Seymour, and when JJ Watt comes up he will rise to top of list with Smith. Justin Smith will be interesting. I'd put him high on list of 3-4 ends, though be began as smaller, thinner, 4-3 type ... I always question those guys in terms of "help" if you know what I mean, but there is no proof.

Leonard Marshall was decent as 30 end, Jacob Green, too. There are a few others who were good, too. But I think Beathea is part of the cream, the top 5-6 ever.

[TanksAndSpartans]

John/Others,

Any thoughts on Norm Willey as DE? Honors are light, but I'd be interested to know if there was any film study. 8 or so sacks in one game is pretty good.

No film of that game. Best info we have is Dr Z saying he was at game and kept track of sacks. He says it was 8 with Pihos with 3 and Sears with maybe 1. I have seen different breakdowns of the other, but unoffically there were 12 sacks and Willey had 8 according to Zim

Right, I meant in general. Len Ford may have been in a class by himself, but early 50s, DE, Willey was right up there (on the 50-55 team I created, I have him as the other DE), but he seems mostly forgotten in history. Wondering if there were other thoughts on him - possibly a HOVG player.

[JohnTurney]

- possibly a HOVG player.

I have a couple DEs I like better, but sure, him as a HOVG guy is reasonable. Ed Sprinkle might get my vote for 1950-55 DE, but Willey would be right there, I might even tie them for the 2nd spot...