Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I never meant to imply that these two, or owners in-general, are the main reason why teams win or lose. It's an overall team effort across the board. In some cases it may be mostly players, other cases coaches, and in other cases the GMs or owners themselves. Whatever the actual 'pie chart' would be, each entity should get at least some credit.

My guess is that Kraft thus far has been more a hands-off owner than Eddie was, leaving things mostly to Belichick these past almost-20 years. Not too sure how Belichick and Eddie would have worked together all this time. Would Eddie have been real tough on him during the '05-thru-'13 title drought? Would it have driven Hoodie out well enough before the Pats could win that 4th Lombardi in 2014? The toughness and pressure Eddie put on Walsh, fair or not, the years leading up to SF winning their 3rd SB (especially during that mediocre at first '88 campaign itself) may have caused Bill to say, "okay, enough is enough", and simply retire after winning in the end. Or could Eddie's toughness have lit that fire under Walsh to end up winning that 3rd after all? I like to give Walsh more of the credit but I also think Eddie played enough of a role. Really being there for his players, knowing each of their life/family situations perhaps more-so than other owners had to go quite a way in the team's success. Flying and lodging his team first-class for road games may have played quite a role in that famous late-'80s/early-'90s road win-streak of theirs. After Eddie left, the franchise was never quite the same again.

Of course Kraft should get some credit for NE's current run, but between these two particular owners - I'd have to give Eddie the nod.

JohnTurney wrote:Chuck Noll was on staff of the 1963 Chargers. Many suggest he saw the benefits and results and brought them to the Steelers. Look, there is no doubt the Steelers of the 1970s juiced. It was not against the rules so to call it cheating is a stretch. As far as how to spread, who knows. But there were players in the 1970s on lots of teams that used them, but when you see the OLmen and DLmen on Steelers it looks obvious. And when Courson said 80% of Steeler linemen used them, that means 4 of the five did. Look at Larry Brown, a skinny TE in early 1970s, Kolb, Webster, Mansfield, Furness, Dunn...they used PEDs but didn't cheat, IMO

Kind of a tricky topic. I think saying Mansfield juiced is wrong. In regards to Tarkenton's comments, I'm not really sure why the Steelers OL stood out to him, when the year before it was the Dolphins OL and a couple years later it was the Raiders OL. I heard those Dolphins teams were the first to have a comprehensive 'weightlifting' program, which might explain the physical dominance of the cast-off Dolphin OL. Gerry Mullins of the Steelers weighed about 230. The Dolphins and Raiders had mauling OLs, the Steelers did not.

I agree that the Steelers had some players who juiced...Courson admitted it, I think Furness' death was attributed to it, we can speculate on Webster/Brown/Kolb...but I'm not really sure you can say the Steelers were trend-setters or it was more prevalent on their team. They were just more visible because they won, which is odd considering they weren't really a big, physically overpowering team like, say, the Raiders, Dolphins or Rams. Bleier was a small FB, Swann was a small WR1, Mullins was one of the smallest OLs in the league. The Steel Curtain featured small S's and light LBs. Joe Greene was a big guy, but he wasn't a physical freak like Randy White. If we are using the 'eye test', then I would think those late-60's, early 70's Chiefs teams would 'look' more like juicers than the 1970s Steelers.

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:Chuck Noll was on staff of the 1963 Chargers. Many suggest he saw the benefits and results and brought them to the Steelers. Look, there is no doubt the Steelers of the 1970s juiced. It was not against the rules so to call it cheating is a stretch. As far as how to spread, who knows. But there were players in the 1970s on lots of teams that used them, but when you see the OLmen and DLmen on Steelers it looks obvious. And when Courson said 80% of Steeler linemen used them, that means 4 of the five did. Look at Larry Brown, a skinny TE in early 1970s, Kolb, Webster, Mansfield, Furness, Dunn...they used PEDs but didn't cheat, IMO

Kind of a tricky topic. I think saying Mansfield juiced is wrong. In regards to Tarkenton's comments, I'm not really sure why the Steelers OL stood out to him, when the year before it was the Dolphins OL and a couple years later it was the Raiders OL. I heard those Dolphins teams were the first to have a comprehensive 'weightlifting' program, which might explain the physical dominance of the cast-off Dolphin OL. Gerry Mullins of the Steelers weighed about 230. The Dolphins and Raiders had mauling OLs, the Steelers did not.

I agree that the Steelers had some players who juiced...Courson admitted it, I think Furness' death was attributed to it, we can speculate on Webster/Brown/Kolb...but I'm not really sure you can say the Steelers were trend-setters or it was more prevalent on their team. They were just more visible because they won, which is odd considering they weren't really a big, physically overpowering team like, say, the Raiders, Dolphins or Rams. Bleier was a small FB, Swann was a small WR1, Mullins was one of the smallest OLs in the league. The Steel Curtain featured small S's and light LBs. Joe Greene was a big guy, but he wasn't a physical freak like Randy White. If we are using the 'eye test', then I would think those late-60's, early 70's Chiefs teams would 'look' more like juicers than the 1970s Steelers.

A minor point, but Harris was the FB at 230 pounds and Bleier was the RB (or HB) at 210 pounds.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:Chuck Noll was on staff of the 1963 Chargers. Many suggest he saw the benefits and results and brought them to the Steelers. Look, there is no doubt the Steelers of the 1970s juiced. It was not against the rules so to call it cheating is a stretch. As far as how to spread, who knows. But there were players in the 1970s on lots of teams that used them, but when you see the OLmen and DLmen on Steelers it looks obvious. And when Courson said 80% of Steeler linemen used them, that means 4 of the five did. Look at Larry Brown, a skinny TE in early 1970s, Kolb, Webster, Mansfield, Furness, Dunn...they used PEDs but didn't cheat, IMO

Kind of a tricky topic. I think saying Mansfield juiced is wrong. In regards to Tarkenton's comments, I'm not really sure why the Steelers OL stood out to him, when the year before it was the Dolphins OL and a couple years later it was the Raiders OL. I heard those Dolphins teams were the first to have a comprehensive 'weightlifting' program, which might explain the physical dominance of the cast-off Dolphin OL. Gerry Mullins of the Steelers weighed about 230. The Dolphins and Raiders had mauling OLs, the Steelers did not.

I agree that the Steelers had some players who juiced...Courson admitted it, I think Furness' death was attributed to it, we can speculate on Webster/Brown/Kolb...but I'm not really sure you can say the Steelers were trend-setters or it was more prevalent on their team. They were just more visible because they won, which is odd considering they weren't really a big, physically overpowering team like, say, the Raiders, Dolphins or Rams. Bleier was a small FB, Swann was a small WR1, Mullins was one of the smallest OLs in the league. The Steel Curtain featured small S's and light LBs. Joe Greene was a big guy, but he wasn't a physical freak like Randy White. If we are using the 'eye test', then I would think those late-60's, early 70's Chiefs teams would 'look' more like juicers than the 1970s Steelers.

A minor point, but Harris was the FB at 230 pounds and Bleier was the RB (or HB) at 210 pounds.

From the 50's through the 70's the FB got more carries than the HB on many teams. The Harris-Bleier duo was a very successful example.

rhickok1109 wrote:A minor point, but Harris was the FB at 230 pounds and Bleier was the RB (or HB) at 210 pounds.

yeah, I should have said 'blocking back'. Bleier was no Jim Braxton.

I take it you are a bit defensive because you may be a Steelers fan. But there is no reason for that, it's not cheating. Anyone was free to do it.

I am not a Steeler fan, but I have defended them on this issue in the past because NE fans and defenders like to point fingers at other teams when confronted about Spygate.

I agree that the Steelers had some players who juiced...Courson admitted it, I think Furness' death was attributed to it, we can speculate on Webster/Brown/Kolb...but I'm not really sure you can say the Steelers were trend-setters or it was more prevalent on their team. They were just more visible because they won, which is odd considering they weren't really a big, physically overpowering team like, say, the Raiders, Dolphins or Rams. Bleier was a small FB, Swann was a small WR1, Mullins was one of the smallest OLs in the league. The Steel Curtain featured small S's and light LBs. Joe Greene was a big guy, but he wasn't a physical freak like Randy White. If we are using the 'eye test', then I would think those late-60's, early 70's Chiefs teams would 'look' more like juicers than the 1970s Steelers.

Good points. And, in the case of the Chiefs, Alvin Roy did work for them (according to that second BR article I linked on the first page) in the late-60's as strength coach, so it's possible that they could have been on the juice.

7DnBrnc53 wrote:
Good points. And, in the case of the Chiefs, Alvin Roy did work for them (according to that second BR article I linked on the first page) in the late-60's as strength coach, so it's possible that they could have been on the juice.

I think they likely did, and if you look at the kind of lines they had, it makes sense, he wasn't there long, but it was when they won it all. I could see that perhaps Budde and Moorman and Tyrer, etc would be that kind of player, bigger guys looking to big bigger and stronger.

Roy was with Dallas for a short time. While I wouldn't suspect Wright, Pugh, Lilly or Neeley (though maybe on him) I could see Niland as someone who used, again a bigger time guy, but the mid-1970s Cowboys, after Roy, I would suspect too many guys, but of course, you cannot tell 100% by looking. But to me, taller, athletic, thinner guys don't have the look. The guys with bigger, defined muscles who say they hit the weights look more like it

I think the widespread use came in late-1970s through the 1980s. I think there was use earlier than that and there were likely a few teams that did it more than others

Have to give Kraft credit, he desperately wanted Belichick and he got him. He didn't want the Jets job with Parcells looming over him as well as new owners (either the Dolans or Woody Johnson) who he was unfamiliar with. He didn't come cheap and a lot of folks really weren't even very high on him as a head coach after the Cleveland tenure. But Kraft gave him full control to build the kind of program he wanted to build and it worked.