Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

BD Sullivan wrote:Tom Fears comments on why Kelly and Burris were selected, courtesy of the 3/15/67 New Orleans Times-Picayune:

Les Kelley supposedly had good "Triangle Numbers" which Fears seems to have been alluding to. I recall Kelley was sometimes in Bear Bryant's doghouse, which admittedly could be a distinction of sorts.

Saban wrote:The Saints also traded away the rights to Bubba Smith to the Baltimore Colts.

It was better than the trade the Falcons made with their pick. They traded for Bernie Casey, then flipped him to the Rams for a washed up Tom Moore. I am guessing that Casey threatened to retire and forced the second trade? That was the Saints' selling point for a while, that at least they were better than the Falcons.

Saints seemed to be going for a veteran approach right off the bat. Not an unusual move at the time, though only George Allen could consistently make the playoffs that way. But a lot of teams tried. Attempting from ground zero was not a smart move, though. It really hurt Archie Manning. He came in, and the team actually aged and declined around him for a while before the Muncie/Galbreath/Chandler group came in. Needless to say, the Saints did not normally draft effectively in the 1960s and 1970s even when they kept their picks.

The Bubba pick was traded along with Bill Curry for Gary Cuozzo. I suppose it might have been believed at the time that Cuozzo was a potential answer at quarterback. He wasn't, but the Saints came up with Kilmer, and flipped Cuozzo to the Vikings for two #1s... which they used to draft Kevin Hardy and John Shinners. Not so great. Hardy never played for the Saints, as Rozelle moved him to the Niners as compensation for Dave Parks.

A more interesting question may be, what would have happened if the Colts never traded Cuozzo? Jim Ward was the backup in 1968, then they traded for Morrall and Unitas got hurt. With Cuozzo, it's presumptive that he gets the call and the Morrall trade may never take place. Cuozzo's pedestrian play would likely be worse than what Morrall did, plus no Bubba. Just one more regular season loss puts the season on the line in the final game against the Rams in Los Angeles. So if the Rams win that game, George Allen gets a home playoff game for once, against a 8-6 Vikings team the Rams had beaten by 28 points in Bloomington. Seems like an easy win. I know Allen never won a playoff game on the road, but the Rams beat the Browns by 18 points, in Cleveland, during the 1968 regular season. So Super Bowl III is the Rams vs. the Jets. Rams actually had a better run defense than the Colts, maybe they slow Matt Snell down better than the Colts did. Would have been an interesting game.

Saban wrote:Catfish Smith did have one former teammate (that I know of) in Atlanta. He was Bill Sabatino, a reserve defensive tackle in Cleveland in 1968.

Why the nickname Catfish? I think that I may have part of the answer here. From the information I have, there was a local sports hero during the 1930's near Ralph's home town of Brookhaven, Mississippi who was known as Catfish Smith. Well, Ralph Smith was a star in different sports (football, basketball, and I think baseball) in high school in Brookhaven during the 1950's (1954-58).

I guess because they both had the same last name, and were both sports heroes, they hung the same nickname on Ralph Smith. That is the way I understand the story, for what it is worth.

I was wrong about the nickname "Catfish" for Ralph Smith. It seems that a sportswriter named Jimmie McDowell compared Smith to a Ralph "Catfish" Smith that played for the University of Georgia during the 1930's.

More info about the 1960's pro football player Ralph "Catfish" Smith: Smith was a 2nd team All-American at Ole Miss in 1961. He is also in the Mississippi Sports Hall of Fame. Ralph played in 4 college bowl games (59, 60, 61, and 62).

At Brookhaven High School, Ralph Smith got 15 letters for football, basketball, baseball, and track (54, 55, 56, 57, and 58).

Another teammate of Smith at Mississippi was Bob Crespino, another tight end.

Ironically, Crespino was a reserve tight end at Cleveland until 1964 when he was traded to the Giants for Dick Modzelewski, and Smith was picked up on waivers in 1965 to back up John Brewer at tight end for the Browns. John Brewer was another teammate of Smith's (and Crespino) at Ole Miss.

I wonder if John Brewer had any influence on the Browns decision to pick up former college teammate Ralph Smith on waivers?

Jay Z wrote:

Saban wrote:The Saints also traded away the rights to Bubba Smith to the Baltimore Colts.

It was better than the trade the Falcons made with their pick. They traded for Bernie Casey, then flipped him to the Rams for a washed up Tom Moore. I am guessing that Casey threatened to retire and forced the second trade? That was the Saints' selling point for a while, that at least they were better than the Falcons.

Saints seemed to be going for a veteran approach right off the bat. Not an unusual move at the time, though only George Allen could consistently make the playoffs that way. But a lot of teams tried. Attempting from ground zero was not a smart move, though. It really hurt Archie Manning. He came in, and the team actually aged and declined around him for a while before the Muncie/Galbreath/Chandler group came in. Needless to say, the Saints did not normally draft effectively in the 1960s and 1970s even when they kept their picks.

The Bubba pick was traded along with Bill Curry for Gary Cuozzo. I suppose it might have been believed at the time that Cuozzo was a potential answer at quarterback. He wasn't, but the Saints came up with Kilmer, and flipped Cuozzo to the Vikings for two #1s... which they used to draft Kevin Hardy and John Shinners. Not so great. Hardy never played for the Saints, as Rozelle moved him to the Niners as compensation for Dave Parks.

A more interesting question may be, what would have happened if the Colts never traded Cuozzo? Jim Ward was the backup in 1968, then they traded for Morrall and Unitas got hurt. With Cuozzo, it's presumptive that he gets the call and the Morrall trade may never take place. Cuozzo's pedestrian play would likely be worse than what Morrall did, plus no Bubba. Just one more regular season loss puts the season on the line in the final game against the Rams in Los Angeles. So if the Rams win that game, George Allen gets a home playoff game for once, against a 8-6 Vikings team the Rams had beaten by 28 points in Bloomington. Seems like an easy win. I know Allen never won a playoff game on the road, but the Rams beat the Browns by 18 points, in Cleveland, during the 1968 regular season. So Super Bowl III is the Rams vs. the Jets. Rams actually had a better run defense than the Colts, maybe they slow Matt Snell down better than the Colts did. Would have been an interesting game.

In 1968, the Browns were better at season'e end with Bill Nelson than they were when they played the Rams with Frank Ryan still at quarterback. Still, the way Cleveland played against Baltimore in the 1968 NFL Championship, losing 34 to 0, I am sure that the Los Angeles team would have also won against Cleveland if they made it to the NFL title game.

So, if the Rams played in Super Bowl III instead of the Colts, a lot depends on how the Rams come off of their game with the Browns and play in the big game against the Jets. I think that the Colts were flat in their 1968 Super Bowl effort. If the Rams are flat, then the result probably would have been the same.

I guess you could say that if the Rams play great or very good in that game, then they probably beat the Jets. If not, then they probably lose.

Saban wrote:

Jay Z wrote:

Saban wrote:The Saints also traded away the rights to Bubba Smith to the Baltimore Colts.

It was better than the trade the Falcons made with their pick. They traded for Bernie Casey, then flipped him to the Rams for a washed up Tom Moore. I am guessing that Casey threatened to retire and forced the second trade? That was the Saints' selling point for a while, that at least they were better than the Falcons.

Saints seemed to be going for a veteran approach right off the bat. Not an unusual move at the time, though only George Allen could consistently make the playoffs that way. But a lot of teams tried. Attempting from ground zero was not a smart move, though. It really hurt Archie Manning. He came in, and the team actually aged and declined around him for a while before the Muncie/Galbreath/Chandler group came in. Needless to say, the Saints did not normally draft effectively in the 1960s and 1970s even when they kept their picks.

The Bubba pick was traded along with Bill Curry for Gary Cuozzo. I suppose it might have been believed at the time that Cuozzo was a potential answer at quarterback. He wasn't, but the Saints came up with Kilmer, and flipped Cuozzo to the Vikings for two #1s... which they used to draft Kevin Hardy and John Shinners. Not so great. Hardy never played for the Saints, as Rozelle moved him to the Niners as compensation for Dave Parks.

A more interesting question may be, what would have happened if the Colts never traded Cuozzo? Jim Ward was the backup in 1968, then they traded for Morrall and Unitas got hurt. With Cuozzo, it's presumptive that he gets the call and the Morrall trade may never take place. Cuozzo's pedestrian play would likely be worse than what Morrall did, plus no Bubba. Just one more regular season loss puts the season on the line in the final game against the Rams in Los Angeles. So if the Rams win that game, George Allen gets a home playoff game for once, against a 8-6 Vikings team the Rams had beaten by 28 points in Bloomington. Seems like an easy win. I know Allen never won a playoff game on the road, but the Rams beat the Browns by 18 points, in Cleveland, during the 1968 regular season. So Super Bowl III is the Rams vs. the Jets. Rams actually had a better run defense than the Colts, maybe they slow Matt Snell down better than the Colts did. Would have been an interesting game.

In 1968, the Browns were better at season'e end with Bill Nelson than they were when they played the Rams with Frank Ryan still at quarterback. Still, the way Cleveland played against Baltimore in the 1968 NFL Championship, losing 34 to 0, I am sure that the Los Angeles team would have also won against Cleveland if they made it to the NFL title game.

So, if the Rams played in Super Bowl III instead of the Colts, a lot depends on how the Rams come off of their game with the Browns and play in the big game against the Jets. I think that the Colts were flat in their 1968 Super Bowl effort. If the Rams are flat, then the result probably would have been the same.

I guess you could say that if the Rams play great or very good in that game, then they probably beat the Jets. If not, then they probably lose.

I remember Don Shula was heavily criticized after losing Super Bowl III. Somebody (maybe Paul Zimmerman, not sure) wrote something like, "Don Shula's team came up flat in both the 1964 NFL Championship game and the Super Bowl against the Jets."

This theme returned after Shula lost Super Bowl VI with the Dolphins, but wasn't heard again after the Dolphins won Super Bowls VII and VIII.

[quote="SixtiesFan]I remember Don Shula was heavily criticized after losing Super Bowl III. Somebody (maybe Paul Zimmerman, not sure) wrote something like, "Don Shula's team came up flat in both the 1964 NFL Championship game and the Super Bowl against the Jets."

This theme returned after Shula lost Super Bowl VI with the Dolphins, but wasn't heard again after the Dolphins won Super Bowls VII and VIII.[/quote]

There's also the last game of the 1967 season against the Rams. Effectively a playoff game. I guess they weren't flat in the playoffs in 1965 against the Packers, but they lost anyway.

There were two factors in Super Bowl 3. One is the Colts' defense getting old a game too early. Braase, Boyd, Shinnick, Gaubatz, and Lyles would all retire or be benched by the end of 1969. The second is the Colts' mistakes on offense. The Jets defense at the time was good for a few years, but it was never great. No way any decent team should be shut out by that defense until 3 minutes are left. Especially with a 100 yard rusher and zero sacks.

What would the Rams have done against the Jets? They were a different team. Less explosive on offense than the Colts, but a younger, tougher defense. Allen's teams were generally more likely to get out to a hot start, then fade, than what Shula ran into. Of course, SB VII was an exception.

Jay Z wrote:What would the Rams have done against the Jets? They were a different team. Less explosive on offense than the Colts, but a younger, tougher defense. Allen's teams were generally more likely to get out to a hot start, then fade, than what Shula ran into. Of course, SB VII was an exception.

It would have been an interesting game. The Rams and Jets played each other in 1970, with the 1-7 Jets trouncing George Allen's Rams team and essentially knocking them out of the postseason. Al Woodall's line is 10-17-261-3 TDs 0 INTs.

About Super Bowl VI, won by Dallas over Miami, 24 to 3. I think that the criticism of Shula was wrong for that particular game. The Dolphins did well just to be in the Super Bowl that year. Kansas City really should have been there for the AFC.

I believe that it was the Baltimore Colts that messed things up in the American Conference by losing at home to the 5 and 8 New England Patriots in the final regular season game apparently to avoid playing against the strong Kansas City Chiefs in the first round of the playoffs. Instead, the Colts played the Cleveland Browns who were not considered as strong as the Chiefs. This made Baltimore the wild card team at 10 wins and 4 losses and Miami instead became the division winner with a 10-3-1 record and had to play Kansas City in the first round.

Kansas City was favored (heavily I think) and with little time in the game (or in overtime, I can't remember), the Chiefs field goal kicker, Jan Stenerud, who was considered the best in football, missed a 27 yard field goal, which would have won the game. Later, in overtime, Miami's Garo Yepremian kicked a 37 yard field to win the game. So, Miami moved on to the second round playoff game against the Colts and won. Thus, Miami moved on to Super Bowl VI against Dallas. I think that things would have turned out differently if Baltimore won that New England game as they probably should have.

I don't know who would have won a Kansas City-Dallas Super Bowl game that year, but I believe that the Chiefs would have given the Cowboys a better game than Miami did.

Saban wrote:

Saban wrote:Catfish Smith did have one former teammate (that I know of) in Atlanta. He was Bill Sabatino, a reserve defensive tackle in Cleveland in 1968.

Why the nickname Catfish? I think that I may have part of the answer here. From the information I have, there was a local sports hero during the 1930's near Ralph's home town of Brookhaven, Mississippi who was known as Catfish Smith. Well, Ralph Smith was a star in different sports (football, basketball, and I think baseball) in high school in Brookhaven during the 1950's (1954-58).

I guess because they both had the same last name, and were both sports heroes, they hung the same nickname on Ralph Smith. That is the way I understand the story, for what it is worth.

I was wrong about the nickname "Catfish" for Ralph Smith. It seems that a sportswriter named Jimmie McDowell compared Smith to a Ralph "Catfish" Smith that played for the University of Georgia during the 1930's.

More info about the 1960's pro football player Ralph "Catfish" Smith: Smith was a 2nd team All-American at Ole Miss in 1961. He is also in the Mississippi Sports Hall of Fame. Ralph played in 4 college bowl games (59, 60, 61, and 62).

At Brookhaven High School, Ralph Smith got 15 letters for football, basketball, baseball, and track (54, 55, 56, 57, and 58).

Another teammate of Smith at Mississippi was Bob Crespino, another tight end.

Ironically, Crespino was a reserve tight end at Cleveland until 1964 when he was traded to the Giants for Dick Modzelewski, and Smith was picked up on waivers in 1965 to back up John Brewer at tight end for the Browns. John Brewer was another teammate of Smith's (and Crespino) at Ole Miss.

I wonder if John Brewer had any influence on the Browns decision to pick up former college teammate Ralph Smith on waivers?

Even more influence than John Brewer on the decision to pick up Catfish Smith on waivers in 1965 was Browns assistant coach Nick Skorich. Skorich was head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles in 1963 when Smith was drafted by the Eagles and Smith played for Skorich that year. So, I am sure that Nick Skorich recommended that the Browns take Smith on waivers in 1965.

I think that it turned out to be a good decision for the Browns. Smith filled in for the injured Milt Morin in much of 1967 and part of 1966. The Browns were probably glad that they had Smith.

Saban wrote:

Saban wrote:

Saban wrote:Catfish Smith did have one former teammate (that I know of) in Atlanta. He was Bill Sabatino, a reserve defensive tackle in Cleveland in 1968.

Why the nickname Catfish? I think that I may have part of the answer here. From the information I have, there was a local sports hero during the 1930's near Ralph's home town of Brookhaven, Mississippi who was known as Catfish Smith. Well, Ralph Smith was a star in different sports (football, basketball, and I think baseball) in high school in Brookhaven during the 1950's (1954-58).

I guess because they both had the same last name, and were both sports heroes, they hung the same nickname on Ralph Smith. That is the way I understand the story, for what it is worth.

I was wrong about the nickname "Catfish" for Ralph Smith. It seems that a sportswriter named Jimmie McDowell compared Smith to a Ralph "Catfish" Smith that played for the University of Georgia during the 1930's.

More info about the 1960's pro football player Ralph "Catfish" Smith: Smith was a 2nd team All-American at Ole Miss in 1961. He is also in the Mississippi Sports Hall of Fame. Ralph played in 4 college bowl games (59, 60, 61, and 62).































At Brookhaven High School, Ralph Smith got 15 letters for football, basketball, baseball, and track (54, 55, 56, 57, and 58).

Another teammate of Smith at Mississippi was Bob Crespino, another tight end.

Ironically, Crespino was a reserve tight end at Cleveland until 1964 when he was traded to the Giants for Dick Modzelewski, and Smith was picked up on waivers in 1965 to back up John Brewer at tight end for the Browns. John Brewer was another teammate of Smith's (and Crespino) at Ole Miss.

I wonder if John Brewer had any influence on the Browns decision to pick up former college teammate Ralph Smith on waivers?

Even more influence than John Brewer on the decision to pick up Catfish Smith on waivers in 1965 was Browns assistant coach Nick Skorich. Skorich was head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles in 1963 when Smith was drafted by the Eagles and Smith played for Skorich that year. So, I am sure that Nick Skorich recommended that the Browns take Smith on waivers in 1965.

I think that it turned out to be a good decision for the Browns. Smith filled in for the injured Milt Morin in much of 1967 and part of 1966. The Browns were probably glad that they had Smith.

Oops. It was 1962 and not 1963 that Ralph "Catfish" Smith was a rookie tight end and special teams player for the Philadelphia Eagles. Nick Skorich was also the head coach at Philadelphia that year. So, Skorich was Catfish Smith's head coach for two years. Skorich would have warned Cleveland's coaching staff off of Smith if he did not think that Catfish could help the team.

Catfish Smith did help the Browns, especially in 1966 and 1967. He was a good backup tight end to Milt Morin and John Brewer before that and was also willing to play on the special teams. I think that he could have started on some teams in the NFL and AFL.