Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Bob Gill wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:The NFL temporarily went to unlimited substitution in 1943. They went back to the old rule in 1946 but adopted unlimited substitution again in 1950.

Somewhere between the war and 1950, I'm pretty sure they dropped the rule that a player who came out of a game couldn't return until the next quarter, and replaced it with a rule that limited substitution to no more than three players at a time (or something like that). That meant a team could use up to three players as offensive or defensive specialists. Without checking, I can't recall the year they made that change, but at some point, like maybe 1947, you can see that Baugh abruptly went from intercepting four or five passes a year to none. The same thing happened with a few other offensive stars at the same time, and I think that rule is the reason.

Interesting discussion, by the way. I'll also add that in the Jim Thorpe era the rule was that a player who came out of a game had to wait until the next HALF to come back. Not sure when they changed it to the next quarter, but it couldn't have been much later than 1920.

To no one's surprise, you're quite right. I shouldn't have said they went back to the old rule in 1946; that was when they limited substitution to no more than three players at a time. That remained in effect until they went back to free substitution in 1950.

Thanks Ralph and Bob - I really appreciate this discussion. Bob, I never knew about the next half rule - thanks.

I was reminded that I had thought about these rules before when I saw Hein played in the 40s after reading the original post because for a long time I thought the 40s were basically part of the two-way era (not '43 because of player shortages due to the war). Now it sounds like only 40-42 and 44-45 were strictly part of the two-way era. Of course players played both ways into the 50s and we had Bednarik's '60 season, but I believe the 3 player substitution rule allowed coaches to be even more strategic than just leaving players on the bench to start the game. And when Neale mentions in '48 that Van Buren wasn't used much on defense and when Goldberg is mentioned as a defensive specialist in the Cardinals book, now it makes sense to me in light of the rules.

A game I'm reminded of by the examples in prior posts is when Charles Brickley coached Massillon to a loss against Canton in '17 and left all the regular starters on the bench to start the game - I think Canton scored all their points early, so it backfired.

And finally, going back to the OP, if we think strictly NFL and strictly minutes played, even knowing Hein didn't play 60 minutes every game - he still seems like a good candidate for most NFL minutes played. Given on average linemen played more seasons than backs and star lineman played more seasons than average lineman, I think he fits the profile. I checked a few other players - Link Lyman "only" played 11 seasons for example. Unless maybe it is Jerry Rice - we know he didn't play defense, but he sure played a lot of games. The two-way players weren't playing 16 game seasons like Rice did - at least not officially as some of their games like when the Bears and Giants played the Ironton Tanks were games played during the season but aren't counted as NFL games.

Mark L. Ford wrote:I know leagues like the NBA count number of minutes played, but I don't know of any breakdown like that for the NFL. It would make a good project for someone who wanted to spend the time to do it.

I don't follow basketball closely, but I'm pretty sure at the college and HS levels, players have to check-in with the scorer's table before they allowed to enter the game, right? Does that hold in the NBA as well? My point being, it is easier in basketball to keep track of substitutions than in football where checking in is not required (unless as an eligible receiver).

fgoodwin wrote:

Mark L. Ford wrote:I know leagues like the NBA count number of minutes played, but I don't know of any breakdown like that for the NFL. It would make a good project for someone who wanted to spend the time to do it.

I don't follow basketball closely, but I'm pretty sure at the college and HS levels, players have to check-in with the scorer's table before they allowed to enter the game, right? Does that hold in the NBA as well? My point being, it is easier in basketball to keep track of substitutions than in football where checking in is not required (unless as an eligible receiver).

1. The NFL has snap counts.
2. Yes, you have to check in with the scorer's table in the NBA.

TodMaher wrote:

fgoodwin wrote:

Mark L. Ford wrote:I know leagues like the NBA count number of minutes played, but I don't know of any breakdown like that for the NFL. It would make a good project for someone who wanted to spend the time to do it.

I don't follow basketball closely, but I'm pretty sure at the college and HS levels, players have to check-in with the scorer's table before they allowed to enter the game, right? Does that hold in the NBA as well? My point being, it is easier in basketball to keep track of substitutions than in football where checking in is not required (unless as an eligible receiver).

1. The NFL has snap counts.
2. Yes, you have to check in with the scorer's table in the NBA.

The NFL snap count is mandated by the collective bargaining agreement. There's a clause called the proven performance escalator that gives a bonus to certain players based on the percentage of plays they participate in.