Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Citizen wrote:

JuggernautJ wrote:Is there an endgame with these protests?

Social Justice works for me.

This is the answer.

It's a -- let's be honest -- pretty benign way of calling attention to chronic, toxic issues that many football fans would prefer to not acknowledge. When the protests fly in the face of the phony, manufactured patriotism that the NFL puts on display, that turns those fans' apathy into anger toward those protesting, rather than toward the systemic problems underlying.

As far as what the protests will lead to, they've already led to plenty of discussion, some constructive and some not. If they make anyone think about the issues at hand more than they had been, that makes them worthwhile IMO.

And if they upset you that much, keep in mind that your television can be turned off as easily as on.

The thing is you don't have a consensus among NFL fans that there is anything wrong that needs to be addressed. A majority strongly support law enforcement and have their own ideas as to what is going on. These individuals are the NFL's cash cows and they have utter contempt for anything social justice related.

And while the kneeling is benign to you, and maybe irritating but tolerable to others, to a great many it's been a last straw

There probably was a way to do this that involved slowly bringing the NFL fans to your side in support of your cause. It had to be measured, careful, and well organized. But the way this all transpired with a suddenly menacing, militant looking Kaepernick and then various players joining in with knees or fists in the air during the anthem, made it seem like an all out assault on the flag, country, and law enforcement. Fans got enraged, they dug in their heels, and they fought back. It's too late to start over now.

Social justice is subjective. One could literally say that these protests will never end because there will always be some sort of injustice somewhere.

So if that is the end game, then, in reality, there is no end game ...

sheajets wrote:

Citizen wrote:

JuggernautJ wrote:Is there an endgame with these protests?

Social Justice works for me.

This is the answer.

It's a -- let's be honest -- pretty benign way of calling attention to chronic, toxic issues that many football fans would prefer to not acknowledge. When the protests fly in the face of the phony, manufactured patriotism that the NFL puts on display, that turns those fans' apathy into anger toward those protesting, rather than toward the systemic problems underlying.

As far as what the protests will lead to, they've already led to plenty of discussion, some constructive and some not. If they make anyone think about the issues at hand more than they had been, that makes them worthwhile IMO.

And if they upset you that much, keep in mind that your television can be turned off as easily as on.

The thing is you don't have a consensus among NFL fans that there is anything wrong that needs to be addressed. A majority strongly support law enforcement and have their own ideas as to what is going on. These individuals are the NFL's cash cows and they have utter contempt for anything social justice related.

And while the kneeling is benign to you, and maybe irritating but tolerable to others, to a great many it's been a last straw

I see a lot of hypocrisy on the part of those to whom it's a last straw. Most of them seem quite fine with people using the flag as apparel, which is utterly disrespectful and a flagrant of the Flag Code.

Which is true. It is in violation of the Flag Code. However most either have no idea a code exists, or if they do, that public opinion has long since declared that wearing of the flag on apparel is positive and patriotic (because who has ever called them out on it anyway?)

sheajets wrote:Which is true. It is in violation of the Flag Code. However most either have no idea a code exists, or if they do, that public opinion has long since declared that wearing of the flag on apparel is positive and patriotic (because who has ever called them out on it anyway?)

Burning the flag, as offensive as it is, is also legal. Of course, good luck trying to convince these ardent "patriots" that it's true. In all the arguments about how the Anthem furor is the chief cause of decreased ratings, I see very little perspective about how ratings at this point were also down at the same point last year.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote:I hope the Packers give Kaepernick a tryout, just so he can put up or shut up. If he can take over for Rodgers for the remainder of the season, he can prove he belongs in the NFL. Very good players with baggage don't last in one place for very long, ask Terrell Owens, who nearly led the Eagles to a Super Bowl win and less than a year later they were more than willing to cut him loose due to his behavior.

I'd be very surprised if the Packers do, simply because Ted Thompson doesn't operate that way. The last time Rogers went down, in 2013, they didn't sign a new QB until back Seneca Wallace also got hurt. And that new QB wasn't really new; he was Matt Flynn, who had previously spent 4 full seasons with the Packers and had appeared in 40 games for them, so he was very familiar with the system.

There was an informal poll of Packer fans asking if the Packers should sign Kaepernick or Romo, and the majority favored Kapernick.

One wonders if Romo has a clause in his CBS contract stating that he would not accept an NFL quarterbacking job during the 2017 season. I think CBS had to make sure he was retired before putting him on the lead broadcasting team, and a clause in his contract would do that.

sheajets wrote:There probably was a way to do this that involved slowly bringing the NFL fans to your side in support of your cause. It had to be measured, careful, and well organized. But the way this all transpired with a suddenly menacing, militant looking Kaepernick and then various players joining in with knees or fists in the air during the anthem, made it seem like an all out assault on the flag, country, and law enforcement. Fans got enraged, they dug in their heels, and they fought back. It's too late to start over now.

It "had to be" measured, careful, etc.? According to whom?

The most effective civil protest is almost always disruptive and disturbing. The whole idea is to shake people out of their torpor and get them to pay attention to issues that don't directly affect them and that they don't normally notice. Sometimes that means bothering, inconveniencing, and even -- horrors! -- offending them.

For this particular protest, an NFL sideline is the ideal venue. "Menacing" and "militant looking" in this case are 100 percent in the eye of the beholder. So is "all-out assault," which, in the case of the flag, I would have associated with burning it until you lowered the bar. Just for laughs: Do you find a white man with an open-carry weapon more or less "menacing" than a black man kneeling?

I'm eager to find out what you consider an acceptable form of protest. I'm guessing it's something meek enough to escape your, or anyone's, notice.

Citizen wrote:

JuggernautJ wrote:Is there an endgame with these protests?

Social Justice works for me.

This is the answer.

It's a -- let's be honest -- pretty benign way of calling attention to chronic, toxic issues that many football fans would prefer to not acknowledge. When the protests fly in the face of the phony, manufactured patriotism that the NFL puts on display, that turns those fans' apathy into anger toward those protesting, rather than toward the systemic problems underlying.

As far as what the protests will lead to, they've already led to plenty of discussion, some constructive and some not. If they make anyone think about the issues at hand more than they had been, that makes them worthwhile IMO.

And if they upset you that much, keep in mind that your television can be turned off as easily as on.

I've followed crime and trials since Manson and have studied criminal justice issues considerably. My brother is an attorney who did some criminal defense work. I've corresponded (met one) with two former big-time prosecutors (the most race neutral people you can imagine) in the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office. I have attended several trials, motion and sentencing hearings, and calendar calls.

And I saw some dead bang guilty, unrepentant murderers.

You're correct in that football fans don't know much about "chronic, toxic issues," but not in the way you think. For one, "criminal justice reform" has already been tried. Extensively.

Speaking of protests, Kaepernick originally was supposedly protesting the Ferguson, Missouri shooting. In the end, Barack Obama and Eric Holder's Justice Department acknowledged it was a justified shooting by the police officer.

The players and the league can do what they wish. I've been watching less of the NFL for several years now. The league is too saturated. If I see the word "night" after NFL I don't even pay attention to it. The NFL has gotten too big, too arrogant and too greedy. It needs to be knocked down a peg or three. If it isn't the gangsters who own the teams who fleece the taxpayers out of billions of dollars for free stadia that are'n't in use for most of the year, it is the players, most of whom wouldn't know social injustice if it bit them in their asses. I still very much love the history of the game but as for the present, I can take it and mostly leave it. There is a great big world out there. Go out and enjoy it. The NFL needs you, you don't need the NFL!

BD Sullivan wrote:Burning the flag, as offensive as it is, is also legal. Of course, good luck trying to convince these ardent "patriots" that it's true. In all the arguments about how the Anthem furor is the chief cause of decreased ratings, I see very little perspective about how ratings at this point were also down at the same point last year.

I am a patriot (attach whatever implication you wish) but I believe that the constitution defends a person's "right" to burn a flag. Please be as careful with your generalizations as you wish others to be.