Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Retro Rider wrote:Very interesting stuff. A few observations from the 1960-79 list:

- Pete Gogolak kicked a 57 yard FG in his first pro (exhibition) game on 8/8/64, but finished 1/18 lifetime from 50+ (beginners luck?)

- Curt Knight only 2/14 from 50+ but hit a big one in the '72 NFC title game

- Fred Cox only 2/24 from 50+ yards. His first 50 yarder came in 1965 (the only NFL kicker with a 50 yard FG that season). His next successful 50 yard attempt didn't come until 1975.

During Paul Hornung's brutal 1964 season as a kicker, he made his only 50+ attempt and was 11 for 37 everywhere else

JohnH19 wrote:
I was four years old in 1963 so I never saw Fleming play. In fact, I never heard of him until several years ago when a buddy of mine asked me a trivia question that Fleming was the answer to. I think he asked me what Blue Bomber led the CFL in scoring in 1963. What??? Who the heck is George Fleming and how have I never heard of a guy who led the league with the then amazing total of 135 points??? I immediately purchased two copies of the Fleming card above for my friend and me.

Fleming is a forgotten man in Blue Bomber history. I have never seen or heard a single mention of him in any books, articles, discussions or talk shows. He wasn't included in the 1963 or 64 Topps CFL sets or the 1963 Post cereal set. 1963 and 64 were Bud Grant's only two losing seasons in Winnipeg so they are mostly ignored because of all of the Grey Cup game appearances and victories in the seasons immediately preceding them and then the unexpected return to the championship game in 1965. It's still very strange that he is never mentioned and hardly known to even the most knowledgeable fans.

Some great observations John - thanks for sharing. We're about the same age (I turned 2 in 1963) so my memories of Fleming are mainly as a political figure in Olympia and as a former U.W. Huskies Rose Bowl hero. Topps did a lousy job producing CFL cards back in the early/mid-1960's. From 1961-64 the same team photo card they used for the Saskatchewan Roughriders was actually the 1959 Cleveland Browns! As 1963 Western Conference Rookie of the Year/CFL leading scorer Fleming should have at least made it in their 1964 set. Fleming's AFL record 54 yard field goal against Denver on 10/1/61 was kicked at Candlestick Park - not Mile High Stadium. His CFL record 55 yarder against Saskatchewan on 8/7/64 was achieved at windy Taylor Field in Regina, Sask. where most of the CFL field goal distance records have been set. Fleming also attempted a 60 yarder against the Patriots on 11/17/61 but missed. He had a number of big games kicking and scoring touchdowns during his short CFL career. Like Jim Van Pelt, another Blue Bomber great who's career was cut short, we're only left with glimpses of greatness.

List of all missed AFL attempts at FG record, from 55 yd FG George Blanda 12/3/1961 until 1970 merger, in chronological order:
AFL
Yards Player Teams Date
60 George Fleming Oakland Raiders v. Boston Patriots 11/17/1961
57 Gene Mingo Denver Broncos v. Oakland Raiders 10/14/1962
58 Bill Shockley New York Titans v. San Diego Chargers 10/28/1962
58 Gene Mingo Denver Broncos v. Houston Oilers 10/13/1963
57 Gino Cappelletti Boston Patriots v. San Diego Chargers 9/20/1964
57 Pete Gogolak Buffalo Bills v. Houston Oilers 11/1/1964
57 John Wittenborn Houston Oilers v. Denver Broncos 11/12/1967
59 Roy Gerela Houston Oilers v. Oakland Raiders 9/14/1969
59 Horst Muhlmann Cincinnati Bengals v. San Diego Chargers 9/21/1969
60 Roy Gerela Houston Oilers v. Cincinnati Bengals 11/9/1969

List of all misses on record FG attempts between Bert Rechicher's 56 yd FG 9/27/1953 and Tom Dempsey's 63 yd FG 11/8/1970, in chronological order:

NFL
Yards Player Teams Date
57 Ben Agajanian Los Angeles Rams v. Green Bay Packers 10/11/1953
65 Sam Baker Washington Redskins v. Baltimore Colts 12/23/1956
61 Geordie Soltau San Francisco 49ers v. Detroit Lions 11/2/1958
60 Bobby Joe Conrad Chicago Cardinals v. Philadelphia Eagles 11/2/1958
58 Jim Martin Detroit Lions v. Pittsburgh Steelers 11/8/1959
59 Jim Martin Detroit Lions v. Chicago Bears 12/13/1959
60 Danny Villanueva Los Angeles Rams v. Minnesota Vikings 11/25/1962
58 Tommy Davis San Francisco 49ers v. Chicago Bears 10/20/1963
62 Jim Martin Baltimore Colts v. Los Angeles Rams 11/24/1963
57 Sam Baker Philadelphia Eagles v. San Francisco 49ers 9/20/1964
60 Fred Cox Minnesota Vikings v. Detroit Lions 11/22/1964
57 Lou Michaels Baltimore Colts v. Green Bay Packers 11/5/1967
57 Charlie Durkee New Orleans Saints v. Dallas Cowboys 11/3/1968
57 Fred Cox Minnesota Vikings v. San Fraancisco 49ers 12/8/1968
57 Lou Michaels Baltimore Colts v. New Orlean Saints 10/19/1969
57 Tom Dempsey New Orleans Saints v. San Francisco 49ers 11/16/1969
60 Jim Bakken St. Louis Cardinals v. Pittsburgh Steelers 11/30/1969
57 Gene Mingo Pittsburgh Steelers v. Houstin Oilers 10/18/1970

Source:
http://www.luckyshow.org/football/field ... 20more.htm

Cox also attempted a 56-yarder in the second quarter of Super Bowl IV, that came up well short and was returned.

Question: has the rule regarding returning short FG attempts always been the same? Cromartie's 109-yard FG return in the Adrian Peterson game suggests to me that it has.

And when did the rules change about where missed FGs were placed? For a long time wasn't it that any missed field goal that reached the end zone, meant the ball was placed on the 20-yard-line, essentially making a FG attempt just like a punt, thus encouraging a long shot FG, which is why so many kickers with really a sliver of a chance of making 50+-yard kicks (i.e., Cox) kept kicking them anyway?

Then, I believe the change was made to place missed FGs back to the line of scrimmage, which discouraged long attempts if you weren't going to make them, and then recently the rule change placed the ball at the spot of the kick after a miss. Am I correct? I'm just partway through my coffee this morning so not quite fully lucid yet. Thanks!

Interesting stuff being posted here. Does anyone have a record of 63+ yard attempts since Dempsey's kick? I have a vague memory of Janikowski attempting a 76 yarder once. This may have been a "what the heck" shot in a preseason game though. I can't remember.

JohnTurney wrote:

You are using the yardage totals on nfl.com - which are wrong. Berger is the leader, but with 37292 yards and a 66.4 average.
The numbers on nfl.com wrong because they are old. Because kickoffs is not an "official" stat there was no rule on how to measure touchbacks. Some crews measured them to the goal line (as you would a touchback on a punt), others to where the ball was downed in the end zone. After these totals were originally published on nfl.com the league decided to go back and re-score all those kicks to the goal line - which is now the standard they use. The NFLGSIS totals are the correct totals and the ones I use on my site.
Unfortunately, the league has never corrected the pages on nfl.com to reflect the new totals.

TodMaher wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:

You are using the yardage totals on nfl.com - which are wrong. Berger is the leader, but with 37292 yards and a 66.4 average.
The numbers on nfl.com wrong because they are old. Because kickoffs is not an "official" stat there was no rule on how to measure touchbacks. Some crews measured them to the goal line (as you would a touchback on a punt), others to where the ball was downed in the end zone. After these totals were originally published on nfl.com the league decided to go back and re-score all those kicks to the goal line - which is now the standard they use. The NFLGSIS totals are the correct totals and the ones I use on my site.
Unfortunately, the league has never corrected the pages on nfl.com to reflect the new totals.

Thanks, I didn't know nfl.com was wrong. But it does not surprise me. How far back does NFLGSIS go? To 1992? I wish one of these sites had seach functions that compiled leaders in these esoteric stats.

It was a pain in the ass to do these and now I found out they are wrong..I have to do it all over again.

BD Sullivan wrote:During Paul Hornung's brutal 1964 season as a kicker, he made his only 50+ attempt and was 11 for 37 everywhere else

Those are what i would call "Larry Robinson" numbers. Robinson was a kicker for the CFL's Calgary Stampeders from 1962-74. He had some horrendous seasons but managed to keep his job as the 'Stamps placekicker (13/42 and 0/11 in the field goal department in 1966 & 1967 respectively). He was also an all-star defensive back with 51 career interceptions so the club was apparently satisfied with him serving in two capacities because it saved them money (and he was a non-import player). The CFL lagged behind the NFL when it came to the use of kicking specialists. From what I've read Bud Grant spent very little practice time with the kicking game while coaching in Canada. Things were so bad in Hamilton that in a 1971 CFL Illustrated interview, Tiger-Cats WR/PK Tommy Joe Coffee said, "I wish we could find someone else who could kick." The following year they signed 19 year old kicking specialist Ian Sunter and won the Grey Cup with Sunter booting the game winner.

The evolution of kicking specialists has been amazing. As a jilted 1970's Jets fan I saw it first hand with Pat Leahy. Leahy missed a number of important kicks that cost the team - mainly from 1975-77. By 1990 Leahy was making 80 percent of his field goal attempts. I have to give the Jets credit for staying with him.

Thanks, I didn't know nfl.com was wrong. But it does not surprise me. How far back does NFLGSIS go? To 1992? I wish one of these sites had seach functions that compiled leaders in these esoteric stats.

It was a pain in the ass to do these and now I found out they are wrong..I have to do it all over again.

The NFLGSIS data goes back to 1991. Here are my alltime leaders (minimum 300 kickoffs):

Rank Player KO YDS AVG OB TB RET RETY RETTD
1 Mitch Berger 562 37292 66.4 9 96 455 11031 7
2 Greg Zuerlein 341 22306 65.4 1 201 137 3158 1
3 Thomas Morstead 533 34809 65.3 3 258 267 6718 2
4 Pat McAfee 659 42797 64.9 3 350 293 7251 2
5 Matt Prater 516 33470 64.9 2 266 239 5885 4
6 Michael Husted 486 31412 64.6 6 95 375 7799 2
7 Steven Hauschka 630 40715 64.6 4 266 352 8251 2
8 Morten Andersen 850 54910 64.6 5 235 585 13532 9
9 Graham Gano 542 34982 64.5 4 320 214 4783 0
10 Brad Daluiso 635 40979 64.5 12 221 395 8778 1
11 Michael Koenen 753 48565 64.5 7 242 452 9727 3
12 Stephen Gostkowski 1025 65860 64.3 11 412 592 12968 4
13 Jason Hanson 1522 97534 64.1 24 323 1144 26283 12
14 Jeff Wilkins 1029 65901 64.0 15 135 859 20752 13
15 Blair Walsh 373 23886 64.0 3 210 158 4025 2
16 Olindo Mare 1086 69534 64.0 12 301 747 16738 4
17 Josh Scobee 754 48216 63.9 17 256 467 10369 4
18 John Hall 635 40599 63.9 8 101 520 11561 2
19 Josh Brown 954 60982 63.9 15 212 710 16159 3
20 Billy Cundiff 524 33466 63.9 4 194 312 7097 1
21 Toby Gowin 593 37822 63.8 1 63 517 10854 3
22 Wade Richey 513 32684 63.7 15 112 378 20541 4
23 Matt Bosher 525 33429 63.7 1 283 229 5447 0
24 David Akers 1156 73569 63.6 13 214 914 20652 4
25 Justin Tucker 412 26217 63.6 2 266 135 3085 0
26 Rob Bironas 690 43862 63.6 14 196 465 11166 3
27 Jay Feely 937 59173 63.5 14 185 710 16095 6
28 Micah Knorr 332 21051 63.4 2 47 274 6166 0
29 Joe Nedney 789 49946 63.3 14 117 629 13595 3
30 Dan Carpenter 513 32444 63.2 6 159 342 8060 3
31 Caleb Sturgis 314 19841 63.2 3 160 145 3293 1
32 Sebastian Janikowski 1260 79591 63.2 15 404 815 19610 8
33 Neil Rackers 757 47808 63.2 7 156 566 13480 7
34 Jason Elam 757 47755 63.1 6 76 669 14194 5
35 Mike Nugent 737 46415 63.0 6 217 501 11569 3
36 Adam Vinatieri 1049 65932 62.9 8 88 939 20883 6
37 Lee Johnson 431 27075 62.8 13 92 321 7512 6
38 Dan Bailey 506 31769 62.8 2 264 228 5000 2
39 Nate Kaeding 626 39223 62.7 9 56 558 12378 8
40 Nick Novak 543 34003 62.6 4 127 400 9269 2
41 Martin Gramatica 500 31251 62.5 9 50 431 9400 1
42 Ryan Succop 569 35534 62.4 11 252 289 6963 4
43 Robbie Gould 872 54402 62.4 15 246 594 13066 2
44 Mason Crosby 887 55310 62.4 16 272 582 13616 2
45 John Carney 966 60178 62.3 14 112 827 18116 4
46 Todd Sauerbrun 543 33702 62.1 20 71 440 9698 1
47 Nick Folk 652 40450 62.0 10 143 483 10494 5
48 Lawrence Tynes 693 42971 62.0 9 93 582 13203 2
49 Kris Brown 819 50753 62.0 11 87 697 15292 4
50 Ryan Longwell 1217 75108 61.7 19 88 1090 24105 6
51 John Kasay 968 59525 61.5 25 92 828 17145 3
52 Doug Brien 555 34069 61.4 10 42 493 10865 2
53 Shayne Graham 738 45297 61.4 11 77 641 13854 3
54 Matt Stover 1032 63325 61.4 16 122 878 18273 4
55 Chris Gardocki 478 29295 61.3 8 56 401 8783 4
56 Matt Bryant 411 25114 61.1 8 25 371 7679 2
57 Jeff Reed 666 40649 61.0 6 50 598 13103 9
58 Todd Peterson 639 38984 61.0 14 33 580 12473 5
59 Phil Dawson 1097 66875 61.0 14 179 869 18060 5
60 Shaun Suisham 613 37486 60.9 16 107 446 9552 3
61 Rian Lindell 848 51467 60.7 12 69 741 15477 6
62 Gary Anderson 474 28727 60.6 14 71 383 8211 3
63 Pete Stoyanovich 657 39739 60.5 7 59 583 11935 3
64 Craig Hentrich 559 33669 60.2 10 57 475 9702 2
65 Mike Vanderjagt 342 20585 60.2 2 11 325 7052 2
66 Mike Hollis 412 24757 60.1 7 22 367 8410 5
67 Chris Boniol 373 22387 60.0 6 14 342 6948 0
68 Steve Christie 876 52554 60.0 10 122 733 15424 6
69 Norm Johnson 579 34730 60.0 11 42 504 10003 3
70 Jeff Jaeger 424 25284 59.6 12 77 324 6637 2
71 Paul Edinger 395 23365 59.2 8 11 360 7724 1
72 Al Del Greco 489 28705 58.7 9 43 418 7896 0
73 Chris Jacke 399 23073 57.8 12 33 346 6215 3
74 Eddie Murray 304 17138 56.4 13 16 264 5226 2

Jay Z wrote:I thought I had heard of George Fleming, but I had him confused with Willie Fleming, a contemporaneous CFL running back. Willie Fleming, who attended Iowa, was subject of an extremely rare CFL/NFL trade.

Bud Grant, in his first year as Vikings coach, traded Vikings back Jim Young, who hadn't played much in two years, to the BC Lions for Fleming. Fleming wound up retiring, then coming back a year later and being cut. Young played in the CFL for 13 years. So score one for the CFL.

According to the BC Lions website***, this rare trade also brought the Vikings QB Joe Kapp. So it was a closer outcome, some might even say the Vikings got the upper hand because of his contributions in his short 3 year run with the team. He did lead the Vikings to their only "NFL Championship", but of course they were defeated in the Super Bowl by the AFL Champion Kansas City Chiefs.

*** It used to say such on the BC Lion website, but I could not find it today when I went to verify. It seems the site has undergone some changes since I was last there. I did find a detailed listing of the mechanics of this trade (and other associated trades the Lions had to make, to make this happen) on Jim Young's Wikipedia entry.

TodMaher wrote:

Thanks, I didn't know nfl.com was wrong. But it does not surprise me. How far back does NFLGSIS go? To 1992? I wish one of these sites had seach functions that compiled leaders in these esoteric stats.

It was a pain in the ass to do these and now I found out they are wrong..I have to do it all over again.

The NFLGSIS data goes back to 1991. Here are my alltime leaders (minimum 300 kickoffs):

Rank Player KO YDS AVG OB TB RET RETY RETTD
1 Mitch Berger 562 37292 66.4 9 96 455 11031 7
2 Greg Zuerlein 341 22306 65.4 1 201 137 3158 1
3 Thomas Morstead 533 34809 65.3 3 258 267 6718 2
4 Pat McAfee 659 42797 64.9 3 350 293 7251 2
5 Matt Prater 516 33470 64.9 2 266 239 5885 4
6 Michael Husted 486 31412 64.6 6 95 375 7799 2
7 Steven Hauschka 630 40715 64.6 4 266 352 8251 2
8 Morten Andersen 850 54910 64.6 5 235 585 13532 9
9 Graham Gano 542 34982 64.5 4 320 214 4783 0
10 Brad Daluiso 635 40979 64.5 12 221 395 8778 1
11 Michael Koenen 753 48565 64.5 7 242 452 9727 3
12 Stephen Gostkowski 1025 65860 64.3 11 412 592 12968 4
13 Jason Hanson 1522 97534 64.1 24 323 1144 26283 12
14 Jeff Wilkins 1029 65901 64.0 15 135 859 20752 13
15 Blair Walsh 373 23886 64.0 3 210 158 4025 2
16 Olindo Mare 1086 69534 64.0 12 301 747 16738 4
17 Josh Scobee 754 48216 63.9 17 256 467 10369 4
18 John Hall 635 40599 63.9 8 101 520 11561 2
19 Josh Brown 954 60982 63.9 15 212 710 16159 3
20 Billy Cundiff 524 33466 63.9 4 194 312 7097 1
21 Toby Gowin 593 37822 63.8 1 63 517 10854 3
22 Wade Richey 513 32684 63.7 15 112 378 20541 4
23 Matt Bosher 525 33429 63.7 1 283 229 5447 0
24 David Akers 1156 73569 63.6 13 214 914 20652 4
25 Justin Tucker 412 26217 63.6 2 266 135 3085 0
26 Rob Bironas 690 43862 63.6 14 196 465 11166 3
27 Jay Feely 937 59173 63.5 14 185 710 16095 6
28 Micah Knorr 332 21051 63.4 2 47 274 6166 0
29 Joe Nedney 789 49946 63.3 14 117 629 13595 3
30 Dan Carpenter 513 32444 63.2 6 159 342 8060 3
31 Caleb Sturgis 314 19841 63.2 3 160 145 3293 1
32 Sebastian Janikowski 1260 79591 63.2 15 404 815 19610 8
33 Neil Rackers 757 47808 63.2 7 156 566 13480 7
34 Jason Elam 757 47755 63.1 6 76 669 14194 5
35 Mike Nugent 737 46415 63.0 6 217 501 11569 3
36 Adam Vinatieri 1049 65932 62.9 8 88 939 20883 6
37 Lee Johnson 431 27075 62.8 13 92 321 7512 6
38 Dan Bailey 506 31769 62.8 2 264 228 5000 2
39 Nate Kaeding 626 39223 62.7 9 56 558 12378 8
40 Nick Novak 543 34003 62.6 4 127 400 9269 2
41 Martin Gramatica 500 31251 62.5 9 50 431 9400 1
42 Ryan Succop 569 35534 62.4 11 252 289 6963 4
43 Robbie Gould 872 54402 62.4 15 246 594 13066 2
44 Mason Crosby 887 55310 62.4 16 272 582 13616 2
45 John Carney 966 60178 62.3 14 112 827 18116 4
46 Todd Sauerbrun 543 33702 62.1 20 71 440 9698 1
47 Nick Folk 652 40450 62.0 10 143 483 10494 5
48 Lawrence Tynes 693 42971 62.0 9 93 582 13203 2
49 Kris Brown 819 50753 62.0 11 87 697 15292 4
50 Ryan Longwell 1217 75108 61.7 19 88 1090 24105 6
51 John Kasay 968 59525 61.5 25 92 828 17145 3
52 Doug Brien 555 34069 61.4 10 42 493 10865 2
53 Shayne Graham 738 45297 61.4 11 77 641 13854 3
54 Matt Stover 1032 63325 61.4 16 122 878 18273 4
55 Chris Gardocki 478 29295 61.3 8 56 401 8783 4
56 Matt Bryant 411 25114 61.1 8 25 371 7679 2
57 Jeff Reed 666 40649 61.0 6 50 598 13103 9
58 Todd Peterson 639 38984 61.0 14 33 580 12473 5
59 Phil Dawson 1097 66875 61.0 14 179 869 18060 5
60 Shaun Suisham 613 37486 60.9 16 107 446 9552 3
61 Rian Lindell 848 51467 60.7 12 69 741 15477 6
62 Gary Anderson 474 28727 60.6 14 71 383 8211 3
63 Pete Stoyanovich 657 39739 60.5 7 59 583 11935 3
64 Craig Hentrich 559 33669 60.2 10 57 475 9702 2
65 Mike Vanderjagt 342 20585 60.2 2 11 325 7052 2
66 Mike Hollis 412 24757 60.1 7 22 367 8410 5
67 Chris Boniol 373 22387 60.0 6 14 342 6948 0
68 Steve Christie 876 52554 60.0 10 122 733 15424 6
69 Norm Johnson 579 34730 60.0 11 42 504 10003 3
70 Jeff Jaeger 424 25284 59.6 12 77 324 6637 2
71 Paul Edinger 395 23365 59.2 8 11 360 7724 1
72 Al Del Greco 489 28705 58.7 9 43 418 7896 0
73 Chris Jacke 399 23073 57.8 12 33 346 6215 3
74 Eddie Murray 304 17138 56.4 13 16 264 5226 2

Thanks, will use these to make sure I don't screw up again. In fact, adding in 1991, which wasn't on NFL.com

As for differences in your list and the one I am making now (revised with NFGSIS #s), I get a partial career for:
Chip Lohmiller 405 25254 62.4 91 7 300 6053 4 7 1
Greg Davis 433 26056 60.2 46 14 354 7783 5 17 4
Fuad Reveiz 388 23391 60.3 65 10 308 6620 2 5 0
Nick Lowery 300 17823 59.4 10 65 241 4803 0 4 0

and one math difference
Shaun Suisham 613 37,486 61.2 107 16 446 9552 3 15 1