Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

JohnH19 wrote:

7DnBrnc53 wrote:Heck, Brady wouldn't have been HOF if he started his career anywhere else.

Yawn.

He probably wouldn't have. All we know is the Brady we see today. However, facts are that he was a sixth-round pick that a lot of people didn't want (like Bobby Beathard). He also needed a bunch of happenstance plays to win a lot of those playoff games. Odds of that happening somewhere else aren't good.

7DnBrnc53 wrote:

JohnH19 wrote:

7DnBrnc53 wrote:Heck, Brady wouldn't have been HOF if he started his career anywhere else.

Yawn.

He probably wouldn't have. All we know is the Brady we see today. However, facts are that he was a sixth-round pick that a lot of people didn't want (like Bobby Beathard). He also needed a bunch of happenstance plays to win a lot of those playoff games. Odds of that happening somewhere else aren't good.

"All we know is the Brady we see today." What does that even mean??? Is there another Brady that we can't see that isn't leading the Patriots to ridiculously good records and frequent championships year after year?

"However, facts are that he was a sixth-round pick that a lot of people didn't want." A lot of people didn't want Unitas, Montana (another one of your favorites), Favre, Starr, Tarkenton, Marino, and on and on and on. So, what's your point?

"Odds of that happening aren't good." Right, because he has always and will only ever have played for the Patriots so the odds of him doing anything for any other team are nil.

The facts are that he was a sixth round pick who has led the Pats to seven SBs and won five (the two losses coming courtesy of happenstance plays) with the latest championship coming as the result of an historic comeback conducted at the age of 39 at the end of yet another brilliant season.

rhickok1109 wrote:

sheajets wrote: Very rarely do I ever see Tom Brady throw to somebody who isn't wide open.

I can't believe you mean that. With a name like "sheajets," surely you've seen the Patriots play.

I stand by this. Yes he is a wonderful great player...but you can't say this guy doesn't benefit from a great disciplined system around him. The Patriots are well disciplined interchangeable parts.

The best comparison I can make to Brady is from another one of my favorite teams, the New Jersey Devils. Brady reminds me of a luckier Martin Brodeur. But I could never say Brodeur was the greatest ever even though he is the winningest goalie in NHL history...I know he benefited from the system. And I've seen better goalies. Just like I've seen better QB's than Brady. Not many, but some.

And there's always something fishy going on with the Patriots. Even the SB we just had. The 2 pt conversion to tie the game had two Patriots blocking while the ball was in the air. Easy penalty for OPI and no flag (would have offset since Atlanta jumped offsides, they were just a frightened mess at that point) but that play should've been done over.

It is kind of strange when you're sitting in a room with other fans and, even when the game still seemed out of reach you just had all of us cynical fans of beat up fan bases going "Watch, now New England will get every break, no flags will be thrown against them, and Atlanta will suddenly forget how to play"

Even on this I still remember my brothers voice "Nope...they'll ignore it and just call holding on Atlanta. They need to knock them out of FG range to give Brady the ball back" And it is exactly what happened even though the hold was not visible on TV and the camera moved to follow the ball and play. What a very odd day. The odds of that comeback was so minuscule, and yet you had every Patriot hater in the world literally predicting their oncoming bizarre good fortune before it occurred.

sheajets wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:

sheajets wrote: Very rarely do I ever see Tom Brady throw to somebody who isn't wide open.

I can't believe you mean that. With a name like "sheajets," surely you've seen the Patriots play.

I stand by this. Yes he is a wonderful great player...but you can't say this guy doesn't benefit from a great disciplined system around him. The Patriots are well disciplined interchangeable parts.

The best comparison I can make to Brady is from another one of my favorite teams, the New Jersey Devils. Brady reminds me of a luckier Martin Brodeur. But I could never say Brodeur was the greatest ever even though he is the winningest goalie in NHL history...I know he benefited from the system. And I've seen better goalies. Just like I've seen better QB's than Brady. Not many, but some.

And there's always something fishy going on with the Patriots. Even the SB we just had. The 2 pt conversion to tie the game had two Patriots blocking while the ball was in the air. Easy penalty for OPI and no flag (would have offset since Atlanta jumped offsides, they were just a frightened mess at that point) but that play should've been done over.

It is kind of strange when you're sitting in a room with other fans and, even when the game still seemed out of reach you just had all of us cynical fans of beat up fan bases going "Watch, now New England will get every break, no flags will be thrown against them, and Atlanta will suddenly forget how to play"

Even on this I still remember my brothers voice "Nope...they'll ignore it and just call holding on Atlanta. They need to knock them out of FG range to give Brady the ball back" And it is exactly what happened even though the hold was not visible on TV and the camera moved to follow the ball and play. What a very odd day. The odds of that comeback was so minuscule, and yet you had every Patriot hater in the world literally predicting their oncoming bizarre good fortune before it occurred.

Ah, I see. You're one of those conspiracy theorists, so now I can ignore you without missing anything important

Furthest thing from it. In fact a decade ago when the Patriots would check down and know exactly what plays were coming and have their players arrive where the ball was supposed to be before the receivers, I was the guy saying they're just well prepared.

I dont have anything on the Super Bowl. Zilch. It was just a very strange event. I think the Falcons coaching staff decision making was so terrible that it would be almost akin to a person taking a winning lottery ticket and dangling it near an open flame for no reason whatsoever. It would be like a hockey coach up 3-2 with 3 minutes to go pulling his own goalie. How did a seemingly competent coach, OC, QB, become collectively and temporarily completely incompetent and oblivious to football situations all at once? When people behave like this in their everyday lives, they are institutionalized.

I would fire Quinn if I were Blank, because next year I'd be afraid that if I'm at the 15 yard line with 1 seconds to go and down 17-16 that he would forget a thing called field goals exist and call for a pass. Why should I trust him to understand that after what I just saw?

It's unbelievable to me that after 16 years of utter domination people still look for things to question, criticize and be suspicious of when it comes to the Patriots, and Brady and Belichick in particular.

The Pats aren't my favorite team by any stretch but what they've accomplished since 2001 is beyond impressive, and should be beyond reproach to anyone with any sense of objectivity. I would dearly love to be on their bandwagon but, after almost 50 years of bleeding purple, I fear I'm stuck with my Vikings forever.

Belichick is 64 years old and 101 wins away from tying Don Shula as "winningest" coach ever.
It is said he has a great understanding of and appreciation for the game.
At ten wins a season he would pass Shula at age 75. The more wins the less time it will take.

Steve Young was no Joe Montana (IMHO) but he was damn close.
It is not impossible to replace a great quarterback with another, just highly unlikely.
Given the Patriots' system and coach perhaps not even unlikely.

Point being, who says there will be a "Post-Dynasty" anytime soon?
If Belichick keeps managing the team (with his hand picked successors doing more and more of the actual work) and they find a QB who can run the system I could see the Patriots domination lasting...
until the rest of the NFL catches up.

Somebody please explain to me what a "system quarterback" is. Then tell me who is not. Every QB plays within a system. Jim Kelly called his own plays but they weren't scratched into the dirt in the huddle. All QBs have a certain set of plays and a certain set of players ... sure, some can freelance and some might be considered gunslingers, but none are truly independent of coaching and game planning. You think Tom Brady couldn't improvise? Hell, I will take my chances with him to lead a comeback every time. He may not win 'em all, but I bet he'd have the highest percentage.

JeffreyMiller wrote:Somebody please explain to me what a "system quarterback" is.

In theory, the term used to be a QB who had a system built for his specific skills and that he couldn't prosper outside that system. All systems now are hybrids and the teams try to get a QB "who can make all the throws"

Back in the day, some QBs, again in theory, couldn't do that. Some systems, like Coryell or GIllman, required bigger arms than the Walsh system. i.e. again in theory, Montana couldn't have done as will in the Coryell system because they couldn't call all the plays because his arm was not a cannon.

Virgil Carter, it could be said was system QB. Ken Anderson wears that tag, but he had a very good arm, he just never played in a system that required the so-called "big arm" so I don't buy it for him.

JohnTurney wrote: in theory, Montana couldn't have done as will in the Coryell system because they couldn't call all the plays because his arm was not a cannon.

This reminded me of Joe's quote: "I don't throw darts at balloons, I throw balloons at darts."

I wouldn't argue that Montana didn't have the cannon of Fouts or Marino but it would've been something to see Joe in the "Air Coryell" system. I have a feeling he would've done OK.

Didn't Walsh "invent" the "West Coast Offense" particularly because of his QB's (with Cinnci) physical limitations (I.e lack of ability to complete the long throw)?