Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

74_75_78_79_ wrote:

7DnBrnc53 wrote:

As for the two wild card spots? You tell me! Chiefs (9-7) would have had a 7-7 conference record instead of 6-7-1 that they actually did have. Oilers and Steelers both 6-6 conference record. All three at 500! Steelers beat Chiefs but Chiefs beat Houston who in turn swept Steelers making Oilers an automatic 'in'. Who gets left out between Steelers & Chiefs and why?

Since the Oilers won the first tie-breaker, do the other two teams separate and have their own tie-breaker? Because if they do, the Steelers still make it due to their win over KC (with the BUF-CLE game location the only thing that changes).

Switching gears, another tie that had an impact was the 20-20 tie between Green Bay and Baltimore in 1982. If the Colts would have won that game, Houston may have got the first pick, and their probably wouldn't have been any controversy with them being able to draft John Elway.

As for the Packers, they would have been 5-4, and who knows who they would have been playing (four other teams in the NFC were 5-4).

What was it that made Elway not want to be a Colt? Would he perhaps had the same lack-of-enthusiasm for 1-8 Oilers?

Irsay's incompetence had been well-established for years, so I have to think that was a major part of the decision. Throw in the fact that Frank Kush was coaching the team, and Elway's father, who was very familiar with Kush's reputation, probably sealed the deal by telling him to force a trade.

Would it next go to common opponents? If so, then in common opponents between the three Houston and Kansas City are both 3-3 while Pittsburgh trails at 2-4. It looks like Pittsburgh would be eliminated on this basis.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:Since a regular-season overtime period was instituted in 1974, tie games such as the one last Sunday night have become exceedingly rare, occurring with a frequency of less than once a season. Which one of these tie games has been the most significant as far as playing a role in divisional/playoff races? One candidate that comes to mind is 1989's Browns-Chiefs tie. KC's Nick Lowery missed three field goals in that game. If the Chiefs had managed to pull the victory out instead of settling for the tie, it would have considerably altered the playoff picture both in terms of the AFC Central and Wild Card race, The half game the Browns gained in the standings by hanging on for the tie wound up giving them the Central Division outright, otherwise they would have faced a tiebreaker with Houston and Pittsburgh. On the other hand, the half game the Chiefs lost that day put them out of the playoff picture whereas a victory would have put them in the thick of the Wild Card race.

If Cleveland wins it makes no difference in seeding whatsoever.

If Cleveland loses, making them 9-7, they still win division due to both sweeping Houston and having better division record than Steelers. However, Bills would have gotten 2nd-seed due to better conference record (8-4 to what would have been Browns' 6-6). As for the two wild card spots? You tell me! Chiefs (9-7) would have had a 7-7 conference record instead of 6-7-1 that they actually did have. Oilers and Steelers both 6-6 conference record. All three at 500! Steelers beat Chiefs but Chiefs beat Houston who in turn swept Steelers making Oilers an automatic 'in'. Who gets left out between Steelers & Chiefs and why?

If CLE loses, at 9-7 the Browns would have won the AFC Central based on best head-to-head record among the clubs (3-1 to Oilers' 2-2 to Steelers' 1-3).

As for the two Wildcard spots with HOU, PIT, and KC all 9-7, it's important to note that in this case we would not break the division tie first between HOU & PIT. That was added to the tiebreaking rules in '91. So among the three teams, there was no H2H sweep and as you mentioned all three teams would be tied on conference record (KC 7-7, HOU 6-6, PIT 6-6). The three teams would also be tied in games vs. common opponents. Each team played MIA, CIN, CLE, and SD, and would be 3-3 against those four clubs (with KC beating CLE in this scenario). Kansas City would then win the first Wildcard based on best average net points in conference games (KC 0.4 to HOU -2.3 to PIT -6.9). HOU then wins the second Wildcard based on head-to-head sweep over PIT.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

7DnBrnc53 wrote:

As for the two wild card spots? You tell me! Chiefs (9-7) would have had a 7-7 conference record instead of 6-7-1 that they actually did have. Oilers and Steelers both 6-6 conference record. All three at 500! Steelers beat Chiefs but Chiefs beat Houston who in turn swept Steelers making Oilers an automatic 'in'. Who gets left out between Steelers & Chiefs and why?

Since the Oilers won the first tie-breaker, do the other two teams separate and have their own tie-breaker? Because if they do, the Steelers still make it due to their win over KC (with the BUF-CLE game location the only thing that changes).

Switching gears, another tie that had an impact was the 20-20 tie between Green Bay and Baltimore in 1982. If the Colts would have won that game, Houston may have got the first pick, and their probably wouldn't have been any controversy with them being able to draft John Elway.

As for the Packers, they would have been 5-4, and who knows who they would have been playing (four other teams in the NFC were 5-4).

I believe how it was handled in those days was if it is a three-way tiebreaker and two of the teams are in the same division, the two teams in the same division break their tie first, and the winner of that goes against the team from the other division in a second tiebreaker to settle the tiebreaker. The 1989 tiebreakers were very complex as memory serves; I remember calling the NFL offices late that season pretending I was a reporter from my local newspaper and actually spoke with Val Pinchbeck for a couple minutes and he answered my questions about the playoff tiebreakers but it's been so long I can't find my notes of that conversation. Ivan Urena is our resident tiebreaker expert; I am hoping he chimes in on this.

Yes, the 1989 playoff scenarios were among the most complex ever. I recall there being 256 different combinations in the AFC alone (assuming no tie games) in the final week of the season. Good story on calling the NFL office and speaking with Val Pinchbeck.

NICE knowledge drop, Ivan! Thanks! Well done. 256 possible scenarios going into '89 finale! And the complex tie-breaker rules.

Yes, makes sense KC would have gotten the nod. And not necessarily for net-points in conference games as you pointed out. After all, take away those first two infamous Steeler games, and the 'Burgh gets quite a (82-pt) boost. However, despite Steelers' 5-1 finish (almost making it 6-0/10-6 with that close loss to Oilers), looking at the way KC closed things out, you'd have to say their finish is noticeably more impressive. 34-0 vs Houston themselves, 21-6 at 'Majik' Pack, sweeping respectable Dolphins albeit they stumbling down stretch...and then you got the missed-FGs tie as originally mentioned this thread and the close loss to Denver at Arrowhead in which they did outplay them statistically. Take it back a little further - loss to Steelers - KC beat them statistically as well.

A 'better-than-their-record' 8-7-1 team that perhaps should get more historic attention. Considering how weak the AFC was in '89, they getting in may have been interesting. For starters, no reason not to think they repeat things at home vs Houston in the wild card. An upstart squad coached by one with very recent AFCCG-experience elsewhere, and with no recent playoff-disappointments to look back on (pressure not to choke). Of course '86 Chiefs don't count for that already seemed like an eternity ago.


I ought to get me that Pro Football Schedules book! Bet it's a fun read! Yes, calling NFL office, Rupert, a good story.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:I ought to get me that Pro Football Schedules book! Bet it's a fun read! Yes, calling NFL office, Rupert, a good story.

"Fun" is not an appropriate word choice. The book is valuable and interesting, though. It is a book I plan on keeping. That is a high honor because usually I donate books to Goodwill or a particular forum member when I am finished reading them. Ivan's book has been deemed as a "must keep." So, yes, 74_75_78_79_, you ought to get it.

Giants/Redskins 1997.

A Washington win IIRC might have enabled them to get the last playoff spot instead of having to watch and see if the Lions lost to the Jets when Barry went for 2000 yards

Broncos-Packers tie at County in '87. Need a tie-breaker expert again (Ivan?). What happens if Broncos lose? Both they and Cleveland finish at 10-5, neither played each other (on MNF, Week #3) thanks to the game been cancelled outright. Both had (and would have still had) identical 8-3 conference records...

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Broncos-Packers tie at County in '87. Need a tie-breaker expert again (Ivan?). What happens if Broncos lose? Both they and Cleveland finish at 10-5, neither played each other (on MNF, Week #3) thanks to the game been cancelled outright. Both had (and would have still had) identical 8-3 conference records...

It would then go to best record in common games. Denver would have won the tiebreaker, 5-2 (.714) to the Browns' 4-2 (.667).

DENVER
vs. BUF 0-1
vs. NE 1-0
vs. HOU 0-1
vs. LARd 2-0
vs. SD 2-0
TOTAL 5-2 (.714)

CLEVELAND
vs. BUF 1-0
vs. NE 1-0
vs. HOU 1-1
vs. LARd 1-0
vs. SD 0-1
TOTAL 4-2 (.667)

IvanNYC wrote:

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Broncos-Packers tie at County in '87. Need a tie-breaker expert again (Ivan?). What happens if Broncos lose? Both they and Cleveland finish at 10-5, neither played each other (on MNF, Week #3) thanks to the game been cancelled outright. Both had (and would have still had) identical 8-3 conference records...

It would then go to best record in common games. Denver would have won the tiebreaker, 5-2 (.714) to the Browns' 4-2 (.667).

DENVER
vs. BUF 0-1
vs. NE 1-0
vs. HOU 0-1
vs. LARd 2-0
vs. SD 2-0
TOTAL 5-2 (.714)

CLEVELAND
vs. BUF 1-0
vs. NE 1-0
vs. HOU 1-1
vs. LARd 1-0
vs. SD 0-1
TOTAL 4-2 (.667)

Thanks again!