The first touchdowns in Cardinal and Packer history

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Bob. That was my experience with the scrapbook as well. Most of the Yellowjackets games are considered incomplete. I think the GB Press Gazette published play by plays, so my guess is with a team like Frankford, it might be the best statistics are in the opponent’s newspaper which puts another layer of challenge on it for any team other than the Packers.

Would you mind giving me contact info for Neft? My pm should be active - I haven't used it, but I tested with Ken when I got the account. I think Neft is retired, so I wouldn’t even know what organization to write to.

[Bob Gill]

Would you mind giving me contact info for Neft? My pm should be active - I haven't used it, but I tested with Ken when I got the account. I think Neft is retired, so I wouldn’t even know what organization to write to.

I don't know how to get in touch with him. I think he's still around, and he used to live in New York, but that's all I know. If he's still a PFRA member, Ken Crippen or somebody can probably give you that information.

[Ken Crippen]

Would you mind giving me contact info for Neft? My pm should be active - I haven't used it, but I tested with Ken when I got the account. I think Neft is retired, so I wouldn’t even know what organization to write to.

PM Sent.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Ken - I just replied - message is in my Outbox right now - hopefully it goes through soon.

[TodMaher]

So now we still don't know who scored the first touchdown in Cardinal history. Was that game against the "Tractor" even a legit contest?

For what it's worth, I don't think so.

The thing is, there were no standings in 1920 -- really, none at all -- so you can't really answer the question by seeing whether this or that game counted in the standings. What David Neft assumed when he started compiling records for the early years was that the only official games were the ones played between teams actually in the league, same as now. That's the way he presented the first season in his Sports Encyclopedia: Pro Football. (And it's the way I'd still do it today.)

But Bob Carroll suggested that since there weren't any standings, all the games a team played counted to some degree. So if one contending team lost a game to, let's say, Peoria, that would be a significant blow to their championship hopes, just as a loss to a Division II team would probably knock a college team out of contention for the national championship. He based this on the fact that at the league meeting all the owners VOTED to decide the championship -- well, that and probably another thing or two. Of course they were AWARE of a team's record, but he argued that they weren't bound to go by the record only in LEAGUE games.

Starting from that point, he went on to argue that since all games played by league members "counted" toward the championship, the scoring totals from all of what we'd now call "exhibition games" should also be counted. Apparently he convinced Neft and others, because that's how it was presented in Total Football.

As I said, though, for my money the only games that should count in the "stats" are the ones between NFL members, so I wouldn't count the game against the Tractors at all. I'd go with that TD against Detroit as their first.

First, I have seen standings published during the 1920 season:
Canton Must Win Sunday’s Contest
Bulldogs Cannot Afford To Lose to Triangle Eleven

November 21, 1920 (page 8, column 1), Dayton Journal

When the Canton Bull Dogs and Triangles hook up next Sunday at Triangle Park there will be more at stake than the mere football game, which in itself is enough. But both the Triangles and Canton are in the American Professional Football association and as both have 1000 per cent something must fall when they meet.
There are three teams tied for the honors of the association or conference. The Triangles lead having played one association team and have been returned victorious. The following is the standings of the association to date:
Clubs Won Lost Tied Pct.
Triangles 1 0 1 1.000
Canton 1 0 0 1.000
Decatur 1 0 0 1.000
Rock Island 1 1 0 .500
Muncie 0 1 0 .000
Cleveland 0 1 1 .000
Hammond 0 2 0 .000
Akron 0 0 0 .000

(Note: You will notice that Dayton’s game against the Columbus Panhandles is not included, but only it’s win over Hammond and tie with Cleveland. Also, the Chicago Cardinals have only played the Chicago Tigers, which indicates the Tigers were probably not members as well).


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Secondly, there is a difference between considering games and counting games. The league owners considered all games when voting for the league championship in the early 1920s, but making the leap to counting those games in 1920 only (why not the other years before they voted to base it on winning percentage???) is something I think someone at the NFL mistakenly made back in 1987 (the first year they show up join the Record & Fact Book).
Yes, I am sure they were lead down that path somehow by Bob Carroll. I blame on the publishing in the 1920 Association book (forerunner of the Bulldogs on Sunday series) of both standings of games between league members and the overall standings that included exhibition games the NFL decided to make them official.

[TodMaher]

Bob, I know this is off topic, but since we're talking about the 20s.....

Do you or does anyone know if anyone ever got a hold of any of the raw data Neft et. al. used to compile their unofficial statistics? I'd love to try to say reconstruct a player's rushing totals game by game, but only the totals are provided. And no bibliography unfortunately at least in my version of the Football Encyclopedia which shows "copyright 1991, 1994". There's an acknowledgements section, but it lists libraries not individual newspapers. Thanks, John

I have PDFs of a large number of 1920s game articles. This includes Bob Carroll's collection which I copied some 25 years. These include Green Bay, Pottsville and Rock Island. The quality of some it is not the greatest.
I do know some of the "complete" games are really not complete - namely the Rock Island Argus play-by-plays. I think they were edited for space, so possession and the line of scrimmage really jumps around.
I have thought of making these available through the Member's Only section, but there are unfortunately copyright issues invovlved.

[Bob Gill]

Secondly, there is a difference between considering games and counting games.

Yes, that's the perfect way to put it.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I found this Packers history website that has really good write-ups and often newspaper articles from the 20s: http://www.packershistory.net/index.html

For a 1930 game against the Spartans, under the title "Facts on Packer Triumph", I found a box score - its a bit tough to read, for example, did Lumpkin have 11 carries for 58 yards? 88? I also liked how they refer to the "ALL-American Backfield" - I guess salaries weren't quiet there to call it a million dollar backfield yet.

Here is the link: http://www.packershistory.net/1930PACKERS/GAME7.html

[ChrisBabcock]

I found this Packers history website that has really good write-ups and often newspaper articles from the 20s: http://www.packershistory.net/index.html

wow! That website is a gem of a find! I wonder if who maintains the site is a PFRA member? The contact email goes to an "akramer@...."

[TanksAndSpartans]

That website is a gem of a find!

Glad you liked it - I easily spent over an hour on it last night - it even has gossip - there was a story that Bo Molenda left the team because he didn't support Herber as TB(QB). I was thinking it must be a PFRA member maintaining it as well.