Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Stanfel's entire case is his all-pro/pro bowl selections (where there's legitimate questions, e.g. 1954) and that he was a longtime coach in the league so he has a lot of people who never saw him play but will blindly say how great he was as a player. Similar to LeBeau, in that latter respect.

There's also the championships, which of course I've read numerous articles about how he played in the 1952 NFL Championship and helped the Lions win . . .

Based on seeing roughly 25% of his career games (not counting team/weekly HL's) his entire 'game' was basically attempting to cut defenders. I say attempting because for everytime he chopped a DL down (which didn't always keep the DL from making the play) he matched it with diving at air and blocking nothing. Evidently that was impressive to people in the 50's but does repeatedly diving at a defenders legs with various results and getting pushed back whenever he tried to block someone straight up = HOF? Who knows? I also find it 'funny' that he's played enough games and seasons to keep getting chances while players without these questions, like Sharpe and Easley, their careers were "too short" (TD as well, though to a lesser extent since he's at least in the conversation.)

bachslunch wrote:

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Favre, Atwater, and Pace I personally IMO feel the most strongly about for 2016 as well as...Alan Faneca. Get him in already; why not? As HOF-worthy Kenn & Jacoby are, Alan has as many Pro Bowls under his belt as those two combined; and that "block heard around the world" SBXL...

As for who else in addition to those mentioned above? It's tough to pick one over the other. Stabler should have made it long ago but as some of you on this site have said, it wouldn't feel right that he now gets in the year after his death.

I'm not at all convinced Stabler belongs in. He's borderline at best with only one SB win and just very good level stats (about like Phil Simms or Joe Theismann) and that doesn't even address possible questions about point shaving related issues late in his career. As far as I'm concerned, the best reason to elect him is that there's no reason not to induct Ken Andrerson, who is an elite level stat guy. And Reaser's point about Dick Stanfel is fair to make -- he doesn't grade out that well on Ken Crippen's film study site despite a 5/4/50s profile.

Re Alan Faneca, I agree he belongs in but he'll wait a few years like every other guard did except Larry Allen and John Hannah. Orlando Pace is ahead of him in seniority, and if Joe Jacoby is ever going to be elected, it's this year or next year or forget it. Faneca will certainly go in soon enough and it's no crime if he waits a couple years.

I was only referring to the finalists who were listed for 2016. If Ken Anderson was a finalist, I certainly would have mentioned him among many others who either haven't been listed as finalists yet, or suddenly stopped being listed. As for Faneca, it's JMO that he get in right now but if he must wait, then he'll have to wait.

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:I know they're going to make Owens wait a while to punish him for his petulance, but if he's not a first-ballot Hall of Famer then I don't know who is. He checks all the boxes -- he was really good early, stayed really good to a ripe old age, was elite for many years, #2 all-time receiving yards, #3 all-time receiving TDs, but can't be accused of being a compiler. Then there's the category they really don't care about but should -- put up great numbers with multiple QBs of varying quality and levels of experience.

I never used to think of the other Terrell as being Hall of Fame worthy, but Reaser has sold me on that one.

I'm predicting Favre, Harrison, Pace, and Lynch, and I'd like to see Davis as the last one.

Oh, I think Owens went way beyond petulant, Jeremy. IMHO his locker room antics blew teams apart, making him a net detriment and unworthy of Canton altogether. There are lots of divas, especially at WR, but TO was in a class by himself, the ultimate anti-team player.

John Maxymuk wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:I know they're going to make Owens wait a while to punish him for his petulance, but if he's not a first-ballot Hall of Famer then I don't know who is. He checks all the boxes -- he was really good early, stayed really good to a ripe old age, was elite for many years, #2 all-time receiving yards, #3 all-time receiving TDs, but can't be accused of being a compiler. Then there's the category they really don't care about but should -- put up great numbers with multiple QBs of varying quality and levels of experience.

I never used to think of the other Terrell as being Hall of Fame worthy, but Reaser has sold me on that one.

I'm predicting Favre, Harrison, Pace, and Lynch, and I'd like to see Davis as the last one.

Oh, I think Owens went way beyond petulant, Jeremy. IMHO his locker room antics blew teams apart, making him a net detriment and unworthy of Canton altogether. There are lots of divas, especially at WR, but TO was in a class by himself, the ultimate anti-team player.

No, I think TO gets in and deserves it -- his stats are too good. But no question his character baggage will have him wait a while. I'm pretty sure Harrison goes in ahead of him (probably this year) and it's not impossible Randy Moss may leapfrog over him when he's eligible. But he's getting in eventually, and I'd bet the rent on it.

John Maxymuk wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:I know they're going to make Owens wait a while to punish him for his petulance, but if he's not a first-ballot Hall of Famer then I don't know who is. He checks all the boxes -- he was really good early, stayed really good to a ripe old age, was elite for many years, #2 all-time receiving yards, #3 all-time receiving TDs, but can't be accused of being a compiler. Then there's the category they really don't care about but should -- put up great numbers with multiple QBs of varying quality and levels of experience.

I never used to think of the other Terrell as being Hall of Fame worthy, but Reaser has sold me on that one.

I'm predicting Favre, Harrison, Pace, and Lynch, and I'd like to see Davis as the last one.

Oh, I think Owens went way beyond petulant, Jeremy. IMHO his locker room antics blew teams apart, making him a net detriment and unworthy of Canton altogether. There are lots of divas, especially at WR, but TO was in a class by himself, the ultimate anti-team player.

If T.O. gets in this summer, there'll be that "but Irvin had to wait due to his off-field issues" and it'll likely give no reason for the voters to have Randy Moss wait either. T.O. did blow up locker rooms and, correct me if wrong, I remember him dropping quite a few clutch catches in big enough games. His 'signature' game, a WC win over the Pack, he had the dropsies throughout that game as well. His numbers, of course, can't be overlooked. He should get in someday, but he can and should wait.

Terrell Davis isn't modest about his feeling he should be in. In fact, before the Bus got in, he all-but said that he should be in instead of him. Does anyone think his selling himself (though not all too blatantly, nor in a bad way) can hurt his chances, better his chances, or it doesn't really matter? Me, personally...I think he deserves to get in even if I didn't list him amongst my personal 'cream-of-crop' candidates for 2016. Certainly before T.O. should. He was the best during the brief time he was in and did win two Rings and was a key reason for it. Yes there were Denver's other 1,000+ rushers who immediately followed, but I subscribe to the theory that TD simply would have rushed for even more yards in that event. He's basically a Gayle Sayers of his time as far of lack of longevity is concerned - and with two Rings and a 2000+ season to boot!

Marvin Harrison...is it his 'quiet' demeanor that has cost him all this time, and may make him wait so much longer (or maybe forever cost him)? Yes, he had Peyton throwing to him but Joe or Steve throwing to Jerry Rice never 'diminished' him in the everyone's eyes. Yes, Rice is GOAT at his position, but still.

I've never understood this concept of having to "wait" to be inducted in a Hall of Fame.

Either an individual is worthy or not - and if worthy, he should be inducted the first time
he is eligible.

John Grasso wrote:I've never understood this concept of having to "wait" to be inducted in a Hall of Fame.

Either an individual is worthy or not - and if worthy, he should be inducted the first time
he is eligible.

Well, the only reason that guys who are clearly worthy have to wait is limits on number of enshrinees each year. Maybe those really shouldn't be there.

I believe it's Jayson Stark from ESPN who constantly talks about the idiocy of the 10-player limit on ballots for the BBHOF, and how it should be done away with. Maybe the PFHOF should do something similar, which would probably clear up a sizable backlog of worthy candidates.

Quarterbacks

(1) Brett Favre is the only guarantee this year. Frankly, I’d rather have Warner than Favre for one game, but the latter’s accomplishments are inarguable. I feel Warner should be a Hall of Famer, but he may have to wait until he is once again the leading QB candidate on the ballot.
(2) Kurt Warner

Running Backs

(1) Terrell Davis – As between the two, James had the better career and Davis the better prime (one of the most dominant running backs of all-time….for three years). I don’t think either guy makes it this year, but if I were taking one, I’d go Davis by a nose.
(2) Edgerrin James

Wide Receivers

(1) Marvin Harrison – Both receivers are easily Hall worthy, in my opinion, with both ranking amongst the top 10 of the Super Bowl era. Contrasting styles – the sleek burner vs. the bruising specimen…I would not be surprised at all if both guys were elected, but as between the two, Harrison has had to wait a bit longer and his time should be now.
(2) Terrell Owens

Offensive Linemen

(1) Joe Jacoby – Three incredibly close candidates….Jacoby was arguably the second most dominant left tackle of the 80s, behind only Anthony Munoz, while Pace and Faneca both rank amongst the top 5 at their respective positions in the Super Bowl era. I thought Faneca was a bit better for a bit longer than Pace, but Pace played the more important position. All three deserve to get in, but I will throw my mythical support to the Hog since this is his 18th year of eligibility. Something tells me that Faneca is going in this season, however.
(2) Alan Faneca
(3) Orlando Pace

Defensive Backs
(1) Steve Atwater – Flip a coin between him and Lynch; two of the most imposing safeties to ever play the game, and two of the top 5 at their respective positions in the Super Bowl era. I will take Atwater because he’s been on the ballot quite a bit longer…AND that hit on Okoye.
(2) John Lynch

Linebacker
(1) Kevin Greene – This is his year. Should have been for a while now.

Placekicker

(1) Morten Andersen – I have him behind only Adam Vinatieri as the greatest kicker of the Super Bowl era. However, that won’t be enough to get him in this season.

Head Coaches

(1) Don Coryell – Air Coryell broke through the dead ball era of the seventies and changed the game. Dungy may actually have accomplished a bit more, but I will go older school here. Not sure if either guy makes it this season.
(2) Tony Dungy

Senior Finalists

(1) Ken Stabler – FINALLY, the Snake makes it….long overdue! Relatively short career, but I don’t see why Dick Stanfel shouldn’t make it as well.
(2) Dick Stanfel

Contributor

(1) Eddie Debartolo, Jr. – Sure, why not?

My mythical ballot looks like this:

(1) Favre
(2) Warner
(3) Harrison
(4) Owens
(5) Greene
(6) Stabler
(7) Stanfel
(8) Debartolo, Jr.

If I were a betting man, I might go:

(1) Favre
(2) Harrison
(3) Owens
(4) Faneca
(5) Greene
(6) Stabler
(7) Stanfel
(8) Debartolo, Jr.

I do agree with the notion that Owens may be forced to wait, so I suppose I could see Pace being that 5th modern finalist.

Reaser wrote:Stanfel's entire case is his all-pro/pro bowl selections (where there's legitimate questions, e.g. 1954) and that he was a longtime coach in the league so he has a lot of people who never saw him play but will blindly say how great he was as a player. Similar to LeBeau, in that latter respect.

There's also the championships, which of course I've read numerous articles about how he played in the 1952 NFL Championship and helped the Lions win . . . .

I wonder if something like this won't be said by a subsequent generation regarding the Senior Nomination of a player like Roger Craig.

The thinking (in 2035) might be something along the lines of:
"The 49ers were the team of the 80s they deserve to have more players in the Hall of Fame.
Certainly the Packers and Steelers have more.
Roger Craig was one of their best players and he was a finalist during his time let's make him a senior candidate."

Whether its with teams (50's Lions) or players (Stanfel) time has a way of making legends grow.
(Kind of by definition...)

JuggernautJ wrote:

Reaser wrote:Stanfel's entire case is his all-pro/pro bowl selections (where there's legitimate questions, e.g. 1954) and that he was a longtime coach in the league so he has a lot of people who never saw him play but will blindly say how great he was as a player. Similar to LeBeau, in that latter respect.

There's also the championships, which of course I've read numerous articles about how he played in the 1952 NFL Championship and helped the Lions win . . . .

I wonder if something like this won't be said by a subsequent generation regarding the Senior Nomination of a player like Roger Craig.

The thinking (in 2035) might be something along the lines of:
"The 49ers were the team of the 80s they deserve to have more players in the Hall of Fame.
Certainly the Packers and Steelers have more.
Roger Craig was one of their best players and he was a finalist during his time let's make him a senior candidate."

Whether its with teams (50's Lions) or players (Stanfel) time has a way of making legends grow.
(Kind of by definition...)

Craig, to me, is a HOFer, although I can't even begin to guess whether or not he'll make it in within the next two years or whether he'll have to wait for his shot with the Seniors Committee. He was a truly different type of running back, and was a shade less great than the contemporary and stylistically similar Marcus Allen, but still a really effective player in his prime.

As far as dual-threat backs over the last several decades are concerned, Marshall Faulk is the best, Allen is second best, and you have guys like Craig, Tiki Barber, and Ricky Watters all contending for third best. Barber and Watters have admittedly received little support for the Hall thus far, but I would be in favor of them making it in one day, especially Barber.