"Best in football"

[Veeshik_ya]

Let's explore this a little further, using the Patriots (again) as an example.

Big coup for the Patriots to snag DBs Darrell Revis and Brandon Browner in 2014 free agency, right? Huge, Super Bowl winning moves! Patriots fans panicking now that they're gone! Whatever will we do without the best cornerback(s) in the game!

Not so fast.

2013 Patriots WITHOUT Revis and Browner: Defensive passer rating of 81, 17 INTs.

2014 Patriots WITH Revis and Browner: Defensive passer rating of 84, 16 INTs.

Then in the Super Bowl, Revis—“the best cornerback in the NFL”—gives up a touchdown while the undrafted Malcom Butler makes the play that wins the game.

Overrated horsepower.

They also benefited by playing Seattle just when their secondary turned into a walking M*A*S*H unit, and had the added good fortune of Pete Carroll OK’ing a risky pass when he could’ve bulldozed his way in for the winning TD.

Race Day luck.

The truth is the Patriots winning the Super Bowl in 2014 had more to do with securing Home Field Advantage (which they didn't have in 2013) and Brady not crapping the bed in the playoffs (like he did in Denver in 2013) than any player moves.

[Bryan]

If you're going to have a Hall of Fame, it seems to me that your first task is to identify the BEST PLAYERS and put them in. Lavern Dilweg was the BEST END in football for five years (and played on a team that won three championships in a row); he can't even get nominated by the old-timers' committee. Al Wistert was the BEST TACKLE in football for five or six years (and played for a team that won back-to-back championships); he can't even get discussed, let alone nominated. Del Shofner was the BEST WIDE RECEIVER from 1958 to 1962 (with a one-year gap in 1960 -- what happened their, coach? were they playing him mainly at DB?); his name hasn't been mentioned for decades. Ditto for Patton, Shofner's teammate for several years in New York. Sterling Sharpe was the BEST RECEIVER (or maybe second-best, behind some guy named Rice) for a half-dozen years, and where's he in the discussion? Nowhere to be seen, while people all over the country lament the fact that Cris Carter has to wait a couple of years to go in. Kenny Easley was the BEST SAFETY in football for half a dozen years or more, and is he a hot topic in the Hall of Fame debates -- or a topic at all? No, they're worried about whether Jerome Bettis or Warren Sapp will go in on the first ballot, or whether Fred Dean was "the first pure pass rusher," or whatever the hell the claim was for him.

I think that was kind of the case with Tingelhoff...the best center in the NFL for years yet always dismissed because of his Super Bowl games (IMO), yet at the same time Jim Otto was getting manhandled by Buchanan, Fernandez, and Greene. Glad to see that he finally got in. Benny Friedman was another case. He was arguably the best player in the NFL in the late 20's and had to wait forever to get in. I would add Mac Speedie to the current list of "best players" still in waiting. On one hand I'm happy to see some of these guys finally get in, but on the other hand when Marshall Goldberg takes up a Senior spot and Floyd Little is in Canton it can be a bit aggravating to see the truly "best" players not represented.

[Bob Gill]

I think that was kind of the case with Tingelhoff...the best center in the NFL for years yet always dismissed because of his Super Bowl games (IMO), yet at the same time Jim Otto was getting manhandled by Buchanan, Fernandez, and Greene. Glad to see that he finally got in. Benny Friedman was another case. He was arguably the best player in the NFL in the late 20's and had to wait forever to get in. I would add Mac Speedie to the current list of "best players" still in waiting. On one hand I'm happy to see some of these guys finally get in, but on the other hand when Marshall Goldberg takes up a Senior spot and Floyd Little is in Canton it can be a bit aggravating to see the truly "best" players not represented.

Tingelhoff, Speedie, and especially Friedman are all good examples of the same phenomenon, and Goldberg and Little are fine cases for the other side of the coin. I know what you mean about being happy to see the overlooked guys get in, but in many cases it happens after they're dead (perhaps most notably with Friedman), which certainly detracts from the enjoyment.

Just to be clear, when I'm talking about guys who are the BEST of their time, I don't necessarily mean they had to be the best without a doubt -- for one thing, very few would qualify in that case. I'm satisfied if they were among the two or three in the conversation -- like Manning and Brady now, for instance. I guess everybody already got that, but I always worry that somebody will get the wrong idea.

[coachtj]

....thanks bob gill for the assignment. want to give an in-depth yet concise answer to the style and performance of del s. for '58 and '59 he is almost always split end or flanker on the left side. he is superb on slants, quick stops(outstanding running after the catch with antelope strides as he was hs 220 champion in texas), and goes deep on streaks and posts including a 92 yard score in wrigley in which he takes the ball away from zucco and strides away. this era most teams still favor man coverage(which he destroys). in the 10 ram wins in 58 & 59 he catches 39 for 780 and 8 scores, while in the 14 ram losses he catches 59 for 1,253 and 7 touchdowns. after his purgatory in '60 and the tittle trade ya shares with wellington and the boys in nyg that shofner was the best he ever threw to(pro bowl). in '61 film study shows teams still using man against him most of the time. opening day '62 the browns "roll" coverage to him(corner up and free safety in deep zone behind). not every teams does this, and as the season progresses....a new wrinkle; del aligns at tight end left....runs either a crossing route to other side, or takes off up the seam. *side note that jumped out on film: when tittle throws his 7th td pass vs. skins shofner is at lte and pass blocks(poorly). as a giant, he still his effective on slants, quick stops, and once and awhile an out pattern, but similar to my boy harlon hill....he just glides down field behind coverage on streaks and posts for scores. for 61-63 in the games nyg lost he caught 34 for 520 and NARY a touchdown. in the victories(and on tie) leading to three consecutive division titles he latches onto 151 for 2,919 and 32 touchdowns. when has a receiver caught at least 32 touchdown passes over 3 years, and ALL were in victory.

[Bob Gill]

Thanks, coach. That's just the kind of scouting report I was hoping for. It's a shame that so many people have never even heard of Shofner -- apparently including most of the Hall of Fame voters.

[SixtiesFan]

....thanks bob gill for the assignment. want to give an in-depth yet concise answer to the style and performance of del s. for '58 and '59 he is almost always split end or flanker on the left side. he is superb on slants, quick stops(outstanding running after the catch with antelope strides as he was hs 220 champion in texas), and goes deep on streaks and posts including a 92 yard score in wrigley in which he takes the ball away from zucco and strides away. this era most teams still favor man coverage(which he destroys). in the 10 ram wins in 58 & 59 he catches 39 for 780 and 8 scores, while in the 14 ram losses he catches 59 for 1,253 and 7 touchdowns. after his purgatory in '60 and the tittle trade ya shares with wellington and the boys in nyg that shofner was the best he ever threw to(pro bowl). in '61 film study shows teams still using man against him most of the time. opening day '62 the browns "roll" coverage to him(corner up and free safety in deep zone behind). not every teams does this, and as the season progresses....a new wrinkle; del aligns at tight end left....runs either a crossing route to other side, or takes off up the seam. *side note that jumped out on film: when tittle throws his 7th td pass vs. skins shofner is at lte and pass blocks(poorly). as a giant, he still his effective on slants, quick stops, and once and awhile an out pattern, but similar to my boy harlon hill....he just glides down field behind coverage on streaks and posts for scores. for 61-63 in the games nyg lost he caught 34 for 520 and NARY a touchdown. in the victories(and on tie) leading to three consecutive division titles he latches onto 151 for 2,919 and 32 touchdowns. when has a receiver caught at least 32 touchdown passes over 3 years, and ALL were in victory.

I well remember Del Shofner catching long touchdown passes from Y.A. Tittle during 1961-63. They were on TV a lot.

[NWebster]

....thank you bob gill for the kind words....and if I am the only resident coach involved in the forum...that is just sad, as there are so many strong & valued opinions out there that do not share. before going any further....there are so many of you would enjoy meeting face to face; hopefully green bay will find us all there(unless navy blue & burnt orange are kicked out). bob you state opinion's on men who I relished evaluating on film. would state to paul lionel zimmerman ..."just put me in a room with a projector and the voters; then they would see what we see" his sarcastic profane sense of humor would go into attack mode, and put me in my place.....though we both agreed al w. was the best overall o-lineman not in the hall from his era. we discussed billy h. & harlon h. and how talented they were, yet again we both agreed that shofner was better(corner in '57...still working on why?)and water field did not like shofner's work ethic, and thought carroll dale should play....so del played sparingly both ways in '60....how did that work out for you as a head coach bob? coverages were changed for shofner LONG before bullet bob. as for patton.....possibly cause the nyg defense struggled from '64 through '66? should that matter....when you are the best, you are the best. one of my fav practice photos of all-time is shofner running down field with lynch and patton trying to catch up. they all made each other better.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the claim that there were no deep receivers (who needed special defensive preparations) before Bob Hayes.

Yeah, like Harlin Hill, any claim of that sort is ludicrou.