Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Reaser wrote: That's what I would go with. Someone could probably say he was a better college coach than pro, but there was a lot of circumstances with his NFL career.

Seattle: Follows the Flores era which was terrible. Behring. Behring trying to move the team, moving offices to Anaheim and closing the facilities in WA, so the coaching staff was at one point splitting time working out of a hotel in WA and a pretend office in Anaheim. Everything he started to put together was stunted by 1996. Then the ownership change (which Paul Allen didn't know what he was doing when he first bought the team, like many NFL owners, took time to figure it out.) So he went through all that in just four years.

Randy Mueller did manage to make a few moves for him but he pretty much coached the team to what it was. 1998 - his final year in Seattle - maybe could have been better, there was close losses including the joke Jets game. Though Seattle was - and continued to be through the beginning of the Holmgren era - an average team with an average roster than could be slightly better than average, at times.

SF: A 49ers fan could probably speak on it better but I view it as the Donahue disaster. Erickson gets his blame for being the HC but he was more just kind of there, no one was coaching that stripped down team to any sort of success.

It's almost impossible for a coach to win when the organization is a mess. Makes one appreciate what Jim Harbaugh did even more.

Veeshik_ya wrote:Makes one appreciate what Jim Harbaugh did even more.

Very much so. If we had the old forum I'd link to my post in a thread about the NFC West prior to the 2011 season where I said (short version) "I think Harbaugh is a good and maybe even great coach, but the 49ers organization is such a mess that he won't have a chance." ... SF promptly goes to three straight NFC Championship games.

Veeshik_ya wrote:It's almost impossible for a coach to win when the organization is a mess. Makes one appreciate what Jim Harbaugh did even more.

Harbaugh inherited a pretty talented team that had drafted extremely well prior to his arrival. I think everyone saw the talent that was on the Niners roster. The problem was that Mike Singletary had won a few games as an interim head coach, so ownership felt obligated to give Singletary the full-time HC position, which was a terrible choice. Harbaugh has proven his coaching worth, but I would also say that he contributed to the organization being a mess.

Reaser wrote:

Veeshik_ya wrote:Makes one appreciate what Jim Harbaugh did even more.

Very much so. If we had the old forum I'd link to my post in a thread about the NFC West prior to the 2011 season where I said (short version) "I think Harbaugh is a good and maybe even great coach, but the 49ers organization is such a mess that he won't have a chance." ... SF promptly goes to three straight NFC Championship games.

I remember John Madden saying Jim Harbaugh in SF was one of the most impressive coaching performances he ever saw. I remember thinking, "impressive, yes, but that might be a bit strong."

He was right.

Bryan wrote:Harbaugh has proven his coaching worth, but I would also say that he contributed to the organization being a mess.

I don't know. There are some people who are so special you just duck and let them do their thing. He might qualify.

Veeshik_ya wrote:I don't know. There are some people who are so special you just duck and let them do their thing. He might qualify.

I agree that getting rid of Harbaugh will probably be a mistake, especially considering there was no replacement plan, but I don't think there is any question that Harbaugh contributed to the organization being a mess.

Veeshik_ya wrote:There are some people who are so special you just duck and let them do their thing. He might qualify.

For what it's worth, here is SF the 8 years before Harbaugh.

0 winning seasons, 3 HC's (4 counting interim), still York family but was a change in who was running things, 3 GM's including one who was gone before the 2010 Draft leading to a season with no 'official' GM in the year prior to Harbaugh.

Signs of a stable franchise with no issues . . .

2003-2004: Donahue/Erickson, we'll skip this because Donahue was a joke and destroyed the team.
2005 into 2010: Scot McGloughan, good/great talent evaluator, but had personal issues. The guy who got SF all (majority of) their talent. Talent so great that multiple coaches couldn't win with it, pre-Harbaugh. He's gone a year before Harbaugh joins. Lost their GM, things were a mess.
2005-half of 2008: Mike Nolan era - Had Alex Smith, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley, Patrick Willis, Dashon Goldson and for half a season Justin Smith. Didn't win. New OC every year (even if they're some pretty big names) didn't help.
Rest of 2008-2010 (minus last game): Singletary era - Had all the players listed above plus Crabtree. Also Bowman as a rookie. Got to .500 in 2009, lost in 2010.
Ownership and Baalke: There for all the losing.

What changed in 2011 to where they started winning? The one new guy to the organization?

We know who Gore was, Willis was a monster, Justin Smith was who he is, and Staley was good so we'll just say it was a coincidence that he didn't start making pro bowls/all-pro teams until his 5th season, that just also happened to be his 1st with Harbaugh.

What was Alex Smith pre-2011? Who was Bowman pre-2011? Crabtree probably has never lived up to where he was drafted, but his best two seasons, 2011-2012. Even someone like Goldson (UW!), my favorite 49er when he was there, thought he would be great but by the end of 2010 I just figured he's just an average/good starter, then 2011 comes and his best two years, 2011-2012. What about FA's that came in 2011? Whitner was a disappointment in Buffalo, three years in SF with Harbaugh and 2 Pro Bowls. Carlos Rogers going into 2011 I would have said had the worst hands of any DB in football. First year with Harbaugh as coach, first and only pro bowl for Rogers, first and only (2nd-team) all-NFL honors, and 6 ints for a guy who couldn't catch.

So we have York(s), Baalke, Alex Smith, Frank Gore, Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Staley, Willis, Bowman and Goldson. All of whom didn't win before Harbaugh showed up.

I'd say he deserves some credit, that the amount of talent wasn't as obvious or as stacked as made out to be in hindsight, and that yes, the organization was a mess pre-Harbaugh - all 8 years prior really, depending on ones definition, but definitely was a mess in the calender year pre-Harbaugh.

Well, and judging by what we've heard/read/know since they fired Harbaugh, it's still a mess. The results on the field this year will be the first test of that, of course.

I wish Tomsula the best. I thought he got an unfair rap a few weeks back regarding that interview video that went around. I saw what seemed to be a decent guy refusing to be manipulated by a media d-bag, pardon my french.

Time will tell.

Veeshik_ya wrote:Well, and judging by what we've heard/read/know since they fired Harbaugh, it's still a mess. The results on the field this year will be the first test of that, of course.

I wish Tomsula the best.

Exactly - was just about to edit my post to add "and it stayed a mess and Harbaugh won in spite of it." ...

I also am rooting for Tomsula (not for the 49ers though, naturally, but I don't want him to be embarrassed or anything.)

Was a huge fan of WLAF/NFLE so I've always been partial to those guys and he was practically a lifer in that league. Even before he was HC of the Fire he was known by fans that followed the league, entertaining guy, players loved him, and he was great mic'd up on the sidelines. He was one of the great characters in the history of the league. I've always enjoyed his love of the sport. Was happy when he got the win as interim HC. Have kept wishing he'd get a DC job then eventual HC job all these years, would have been happier if the HC happened well before 2015 and if he didn't end up as HC of my least favorite team.

Regardless, I hope he gets to prove what kind of coach he is and that the mess that SF has continued to be doesn't derail his chances.

Reaser wrote: Exactly - was just about to edit my post to add "and it stayed a mess and Harbaugh won in spite of it." ...

What exactly was Harbaugh winning in spite of? What was preventing Harbaugh from winning games? I'm not really sure how hitting on numerous mid-level draft picks qualifies as a "mess". It seems like the Niners have done a very good job at drafting players in the last several years. I'm sure Harbaugh played a role in developing those players, but I don't see how that would qualify as Harbaugh winning in spite of poor drafting.

The mess part was Harbaugh's relationship with everyone in the front office, and the owner being a 32-year old kid unable to exert influence on the situation. It seems like the current "mess" was partly Harbaugh's orchestration. Not sure how Donahue fits in to it.