"Three Studs on the O-Line" article

[Saban1]

Thanks, and thanks for posting the article.

[BD Sullivan]

1961-69: John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that.

He was put on the expansion list and the Saints picked him. Originally, he threatened to retire, but changed his mind. He would have been better off sticking with his original plan, since he was cut midway through training camp. He wasn't fully recovered from the broken leg, and was favoring it--thereby injuring his knee in the process.

[Saban1]

Interesting thread.

For long term greatness, I like the Cleveland Browns starting in 1946 through the 1950's and 1960's.

(1) AAFC years (1946-1949): Tackles were Lou Groza and Lou Rymkus. Groza is in the HOF and Rymkus probably should be (many think he belongs). Guards were Ed Ulinski, Lin Houston, Weldon Humble, and Bob Gaudio, with defensive guard Bill Willis sometimes playing OG. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. In 1946 and 1947, Mo Scarry, who was NFL All-Pro with the Rams in 1945, started at center for the Cleveland Browns.

Ernie Blandin was a solid left tackle for the Browns in 1946 and 1947. In 1948, the league forced Cleveland to send Blandin to Baltimore in the AAFC's plan for the haves to help the have nots. Coach Paul Brown told the AAFC Commissioner to tell Blandin that sending him to Baltimore was the Commissioner's idea and not his. Cleveland also lost Y.A. Tittle the same way.

(2) Early 1950's: Tackles were Groza and Rymkus (Rymkus through 1951). John Sandusky was a solid right tackle from 1952 through 1954, but was replaced by HOFer Mike McCormack in 1955. I have a tape of the 1956 Green Bay Packers and I focused on watching John Sandusky sometimes at right tackle (Sandusky was traded to Green Bay in 1956) and Sandusky always seemed to make his block. I think that he was underrated due to playing with so many other great players.

Guards started out were Lin Houston, Abe Gibron and Weldon Humble and were joined later by Chuck Noll, Hal Bradley, Herschel Forester with Guadio (1951) and Skibinski (1952) playing guard for one season. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. This group with the Cleveland Browns won 6 Eastern Conference titles and 3 NFL Championships during those years (1950-55).

(3) Late 1950's and 1960 (1956-1960): Tackles Groza and McCormack with Dick Schafrath taking over at left tackle in 1959. Guards were Bradley and Forrester to start in 1956 with Jim Ray Smith taking over in 1957. Gene Hickerson joined the Browns in 1958 with Chuck Noll filling in sometimes before that and rookie Fred Robinson being one of the messenger guards in 1957. John Wooten joined the team in 1959. Art Hunter joined the Browns in 1956 and started at center for 3 years (1957-59). Hunter was traded to the Rams for John Morrow in 1960, and Morrow played well for Cleveland through part of 1966.

Those Cleveland teams in the late 1950's were tough, but didn't have the passing attack of the earlier Browns team that had guys like Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones. They had great running with Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and their great offensive line, and a tough defense, and were unlucky to not win some more championships during those years, especially in 1958.

(4) 1961-69: Mostly Schafrath and Monte Clark at the tackles with Hickerson and Wooten (through 1967) for most of the 1960's. Jim Ray Smith started at left guard through 1962 and then was traded for Monte Clark. McCormack started at right tackle through 1962. Wooten was traded to Washington in 1968 and John DeMarie played well at left guard for a few years after that. John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that. Fred Hoaglin was a rookie in 1966 and took over at center for the injured Morrow. Hoaglin remained the starting center for the next few years for Cleveland. Cleveland won 4 Eastern Conference titles during those years (1961-1969) and the NFL Championship in 1964.

I would say that it was a pretty long stretch of great offensive line play for the Cleveland Browns. That is my opinion anyway.

Harold Bradley's last year with Cleveland was 1956, and 1956 was also Abe Gibrons final season with the Browns, and Abe only played in 7 games that year before being traded to Philadelphia (traded or picked up on waivers). In 1957, Herschel Forester, in his last season, became the starter at left guard and Jim Ray Smith and Fred Robinson were messenger guards on the other side. Smith became the starter at left guard for the next few years and was one of the best ever. Chuck Noll was a messenger guard along with rookie Gene Hickerson at right guard in 1958.

(1) About having 3 studs on the OL, during the AAFC years, HOFer Lou Groza was starting left tackle beginning in 1948. Lou Rymkus started at right tackle all 4 years (1946-49), and was one of the best around. Rymkus was named to at least one All-Pro or All-League team all four years of the AAFC. HOFer Frank Gatski was starting center from 1948 on. Mike Scarry was All-Pro center in the NFL in 1945 and a starter for Cleveland in 1946 and 1947. Ed Ulinski was named 2nd team All-League guard in 1946 and 1948. Weldon Humble was named 2nd team All-League guard in 1948. Guard Lin Houston was named 2nd team All-Pro in the NFL in 1950 and 1951. All in all, I think that Cleveland's offensive line was at least equal to the three studs during the AAFC years.

Another thing, fullback Marion Motley was a terrific blocker and would often flatten defensive rushing linemen. Tough enough getting through Cleveland's offensive line only to run into Motley.

(2)1950-55: HOFers left tackle Groza and Center Gatski and HOFer Mike McCormack starting at right tackle in 1955. Rymkus at right tackle in 1950 and 1951 with Sandusky in between Rymkus and McCormack. Abe Gibron was named to some NFL All-Pro teams at guard and Houston is already mentioned.

(3) 1956-1960: Maybe best era of Cleveland's offensive linemen with Groza and McCormack at tackles and Schafrath starting in 1959 at LT. Also, guards Jim Ray Smith and Gene Hickerson starting in 1958. Gatski at center in 1956, Hunter (1957-59), and Morrow starting at center in 1960.

(4) Hickerson, Wooten, Schafrath, and Morrow, with Smith and McCormack through 1962. What more need be said.

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

Put another way, scheme is overrated and player stats are the product, not the cause.

Hey, I said it'd be an unpopular opinion.

What's your basis for this(the bolded)?

Your comment on stats doesn't make sense. Please expound....a lot.

The last thing I want to do is put words in his mouth, but I think there's a very short, clear explanation: Bill James & Moneyball. Using baseball as an analogy, what matters is on-base percentage (stat/result). How the batter gets there (scheme) is irrelevant or at least overrated.

[Veeshik_ya]

Interesting thread.

For long term greatness, I like the Cleveland Browns starting in 1946 through the 1950's and 1960's.

(1) AAFC years (1946-1949): Tackles were Lou Groza and Lou Rymkus. Groza is in the HOF and Rymkus probably should be (many think he belongs). Guards were Ed Ulinski, Lin Houston, Weldon Humble, and Bob Gaudio, with defensive guard Bill Willis sometimes playing OG. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. In 1946 and 1947, Mo Scarry, who was NFL All-Pro with the Rams in 1945, started at center for the Cleveland Browns.

Ernie Blandin was a solid left tackle for the Browns in 1946 and 1947. In 1948, the league forced Cleveland to send Blandin to Baltimore in the AAFC's plan for the haves to help the have nots. Coach Paul Brown told the AAFC Commissioner to tell Blandin that sending him to Baltimore was the Commissioner's idea and not his. Cleveland also lost Y.A. Tittle the same way.

(2) Early 1950's: Tackles were Groza and Rymkus (Rymkus through 1951). John Sandusky was a solid right tackle from 1952 through 1954, but was replaced by HOFer Mike McCormack in 1955. I have a tape of the 1956 Green Bay Packers and I focused on watching John Sandusky sometimes at right tackle (Sandusky was traded to Green Bay in 1956) and Sandusky always seemed to make his block. I think that he was underrated due to playing with so many other great players.

Guards started out were Lin Houston, Abe Gibron and Weldon Humble and were joined later by Chuck Noll, Hal Bradley, Herschel Forester with Guadio (1951) and Skibinski (1952) playing guard for one season. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. This group with the Cleveland Browns won 6 Eastern Conference titles and 3 NFL Championships during those years (1950-55).

(3) Late 1950's and 1960 (1956-1960): Tackles Groza and McCormack with Dick Schafrath taking over at left tackle in 1959. Guards were Bradley and Forrester to start in 1956 with Jim Ray Smith taking over in 1957. Gene Hickerson joined the Browns in 1958 with Chuck Noll filling in sometimes before that and rookie Fred Robinson being one of the messenger guards in 1957. John Wooten joined the team in 1959. Art Hunter joined the Browns in 1956 and started at center for 3 years (1957-59). Hunter was traded to the Rams for John Morrow in 1960, and Morrow played well for Cleveland through part of 1966.

Those Cleveland teams in the late 1950's were tough, but didn't have the passing attack of the earlier Browns team that had guys like Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones. They had great running with Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and their great offensive line, and a tough defense, and were unlucky to not win some more championships during those years, especially in 1958.

(4) 1961-69: Mostly Schafrath and Monte Clark at the tackles with Hickerson and Wooten (through 1967) for most of the 1960's. Jim Ray Smith started at left guard through 1962 and then was traded for Monte Clark. McCormack started at right tackle through 1962. Wooten was traded to Washington in 1968 and John DeMarie played well at left guard for a few years after that. John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that. Fred Hoaglin was a rookie in 1966 and took over at center for the injured Morrow. Hoaglin remained the starting center for the next few years for Cleveland. Cleveland won 4 Eastern Conference titles during those years (1961-1969) and the NFL Championship in 1964.

I would say that it was a pretty long stretch of great offensive line play for the Cleveland Browns. That is my opinion anyway.

It's amazing how many of these names went on to do other great things in the league. But that was Paul Brown's genius, wasn't it? He was a tree that bore fruit.

[Veeshik_ya]

Another thing, fullback Marion Motley was a terrific blocker and would often flatten defensive rushing linemen. Tough enough getting through Cleveland's offensive line only to run into Motley.

Wasn't Motley Dr. Z's pick for greatest RB ever?

[Bryan]

(4) 1961-69: Mostly Schafrath and Monte Clark at the tackles with Hickerson and Wooten (through 1967) for most of the 1960's. Jim Ray Smith started at left guard through 1962 and then was traded for Monte Clark. McCormack started at right tackle through 1962. Wooten was traded to Washington in 1968 and John DeMarie played well at left guard for a few years after that. John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that. Fred Hoaglin was a rookie in 1966 and took over at center for the injured Morrow. Hoaglin remained the starting center for the next few years for Cleveland. Cleveland won 4 Eastern Conference titles during those years (1961-1969) and the NFL Championship in 1964.

Its interesting that Hickerson ended up being the Cleveland OL who was put in Canton...I think Schafrath has an equal case being there...like a Swann/Stallworth situation where both were great players but neither are locks for the HOF. I read Terry Pluto's book about the 1964 Browns, and IIRC after Schafrath retired he became a multi-millionaire and built a set of vacation homes so his ex-teammates could visit him. Always thought that was neat. Schafrath was also featured in the NFL Films Eyeball to Eyeball 1968 segment, where Schafrath goes up against Gary Pettigrew of the Eagles.

Although they won no titles, I think the Rams O-line from the late 1960's-late 1980's was consistently excellent.

[Veeshik_ya]

Although they won no titles, I think the Rams O-line from the late 1960's-late 1980's was consistently excellent.

Here, here! 1989 playoff vs. Eagles, when Jackie Slater treated Reggie White like a child, their crowning achievement? (His one sack given up by Doug Smith, I think)

[Saban1]

Another thing, fullback Marion Motley was a terrific blocker and would often flatten defensive rushing linemen. Tough enough getting through Cleveland's offensive line only to run into Motley.

Wasn't Motley Dr. Z's pick for greatest RB ever?

Yes he was. Motley was not only a great runner and blocker, but also a great linebacker on defense. Paul Brown said that Marion Motley could have made the HOF as a linebacker if he did not play fullback. He was that good. Motley later still played on Cleveland's goal line defense in goal line situations and he did make some big plays for the Browns there.

Marion Motley, I believe, still has the highest average yards per attempt rushing (5.7) lifetime if AAFC stats are counted (of course, the NFL does not count AAFC stats).

In the 1952 NFL championship game, Marion Motley was past his prime and was 32 years old with bad knees. Motley had lost his starting fullback job to Chick Jagade, but still managed to break away for a gain of over 40 yards in that game. On that run, he reminded me of Jim Brown. Motley still managed to average 4.3 yards per carry in 1952 and finished 6th in the NFL in rushing yards (5th if the championship game is counted in. He would have passed Hoernschemeyer who also played in the title game for Detroit). Not bad for an over the hill fullback who had lost his starting job.

[Hail Casares]

Another thing, fullback Marion Motley was a terrific blocker and would often flatten defensive rushing linemen. Tough enough getting through Cleveland's offensive line only to run into Motley.

Wasn't Motley Dr. Z's pick for greatest RB ever?

Motley was his pick for his FB on his All-Century team.