Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

by Mark L. Ford » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:15 am
"...Not 25 city blocks, but the equivalent of five or six football fields...."


Actually, that is not bad use of the Multiplication Table.

While the paragraph below states the standard block in Manhattan to be less than 1000 x 300
there are many that are far greater and many that are far less.
It was surprising to read the sizes of city blocks in Melbourne and Edmonton.

Since the spacing of streets in grid plans varies so widely among cities, or even within cities,
it is difficult to generalize about the size of a city block. However, as reference points,
the standard square blocks of Portland, Houston, and Sacramento are 260 by 260 feet (79 m × 79 m),
330 by 330 feet (100 m × 100 m), and 410 by 410 feet (120 m × 120 m) respectively
(to the street center line). Oblong blocks range considerably in width and length.
The standard block in Manhattan is about 264 by 900 feet (80 m × 274 m);
and in some U.S. cities standard blocks are as wide as 660 feet (200 m).
The blocks in Edmonton, Canada are 560 by 330 feet (170 m × 100 m).
The blocks in central Melbourne, Australia, are 660 by 330 feet (200 m × 100 m),
formed by splitting the square blocks in an original grid with a narrow street down the middle.

The object of the lesson was to have folks realize that these buildings are a tad larger than sheds
where a local town marshall might store a few extra shotguns in case he has to organize and arm a posse
to make raids on a few moonshiners. (Where have you gone Johnny Boone?)
They are massive. And, in their day, they were filled with armaments. They were literally fortresses.
The other side of that coin is that the defenders are often also, in effect, prisoners as John Brown learned
at Harper's Ferry although that building was classified as an arsenal.

The Armory was the site of some New York Knicks home games from 1946 to 1960. The New York Americans –
now the Brooklyn Nets – of the new American Basketball Association wanted to play at the Armory in 1967,
but pressure from the Knicks on the Armory management forced the new club to play in Teaneck, New Jersey instead.
It even hosted some southern sports. In late 1948 and early 1949, the Armory hosted at least 17 Roller Derby matches, including the first matches ever broadcast on television.

Here are a couple of photos of mid-size armories in The City.
In the '40s and '50s, the Yankees and the Giants and the Dodgers gave clinics to city kids
and they had infield, outfield, pitching, catching, throwing, and all sorts of hitting classes on-going -
including bunting (my instructor was a guy named Phil Rizzuto) - simultaneously.

oldecapecod 11 wrote:by Mark L. Ford » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:15 am
"...Not 25 city blocks, but the equivalent of five or six football fields...."



The Armory was the site of some New York Knicks home games from 1946 to 1960. The New York Americans –
now the Brooklyn Nets – of the new American Basketball Association wanted to play at the Armory in 1967,
but pressure from the Knicks on the Armory management forced the new club to play in Teaneck, New Jersey instead.
It even hosted some southern sports. In late 1948 and early 1949, the Armory hosted at least 17 Roller Derby matches, including the first matches ever broadcast on television.

In the Knicks first season 1946-47 they played 26 of their 33 home games at the 69th Regiment Armory
and only seven at Madison Square Garden.

by John Grasso » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:56 pm
"In the Knicks first season 1946-47 they played 26 of their 33 home games at the 69th Regiment Armory
and only seven at Madison Square Garden."

Where did you get that data, John?
Three of their home games were play-off games. What I can find says they were at MSG?
MSG is listed as their home court.
Odd that such a large number are played at an alternative site?

Interesting... two of the players on that team rose to national prominence after their basketball-playing days were done.

It was the 69th Street Regiment Armory, at 25th Street, not the uptown 69th Street Armory. College bball was far more popular in 1940s and early 50s. Even the weekend afternoon New York Rovers ice hockey games took precedence in MSG's scheduling. As would the Rangers schedule, track and field events, the circus...

Some reasons would include that the circus was in town, and they took precedent, even in the 1960s, they still did. This made playoff games for Rangers and Knicks, sometimes problematic. In the early years, most of Knicks games took place at the 5,000 seat armory and only big games at the Garden (examples would be when Mikan was coming to town with the Lakers, and doubleheaders, many of which included the Harlem Globetrotters, who were the higher draw in those years.)
http://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.com/2 ... iment.html


This 69th Street Regiment Armory, on Lexington (pictured in a previous post. The one with the mansard roof line, a Beaux Art structure). This was, by the way, where the famous 1913 art show was held. The Armory Show was a watershed event for modern art in America
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CiAExPZ ... ow&f=false

I once was inside the big armory at Atlantic and Bedford in Brooklyn (about at point where the LIRR enters the tunnel to downtown.) For a charity fair when I was a kid. The huge inside space and in all armories, including the 69th, was a "parade ground" used for assembling the troops for review and excercises. Also for horses and such. Most of these armories have/had such spaces, floor to roof spaces. The one way uptown in Manhattan hosts the remaining track and field events that uesd to take place at Madison Square Garden, in a redesigned interior using such a space.

<Thure Johansson of Sweden broke Dorando Pietri's indoor record for the marathon at the 69th Regiment Armory on March 1, 1910> Wow, I wonder how many laps around the track that was?

<In late 1948 and early 1949, the Armory hosted at least 17 Roller Derby matches, including the first matches ever broadcast on television.> The New York Times once reported these games. I guess they thought them legit. Banked track roller derby is so much better and easier to watch than the current flat track sport (though worst of all was when they made it a figure 8 track which combined elements of demolition derby to the "sport.")

The Fighting 69th's motto is "Gentle when stroked, Fierce when provoked."

by luckyshow » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:13 pm
"It was the 69th Street Regiment Armory, at 25th Street, not the uptown 69th Street Armory..."

"... Some reasons would include that the circus was in town, and they took precedent, even in the 1960s, they still did. This made playoff games for Rangers and Knicks, sometimes problematic. In the early years, most of Knicks games took place at the 5,000 seat armory and only big games at the Garden (examples would be when Mikan was coming to town with the Lakers, and doubleheaders, many of which included the Harlem Globetrotters, who were the higher draw in those years.)..."

Paul,
The building referenced by both John and myself IS the 69th Regiment Armory - not the 69th Street Regiment Armory or the uptown 69th Street Armory that you mention.
The photo shown above (with the photo of the Squadron A Armory) is the same building as shown in the Alice Lum photo you linked. The photo above is of the Lexington Avenue frontage of the building which extends from 24th Street to 25th Street and to Park Avenue where once the stables were located and accessed.
Your photo also shows the second and third roof levels better than the posted photo.
There was also a full basement - large enough to park a tank battalion - and two or three sub-basements, one of which had a tunnel to access the IRT subway line that ran beneath Lexington Avenue before turning near 14th Street. Somewhere in there, Lexington became Fourth Avenue again.
Your explanation re the Mikan Lakers and the Globetrotters makes a lot of sense.
The Circus even makes more sense. I believe the contract with MSG and the City said that if MSG was unavailable the City had to find a suitable alternative. So, it was a lot easier to move a basketball or hockey game that it would have been to find a place to house RB,B&B for a couple of weeks.
In my youth, the circus train could not go directly to MSG as it does now. The train would let the circus off at 125th Street and it would march - elephants and all - down 2nd Avenue, usually of a Sunday morning. It was NOT announced. In those days, the Department of Sanitation had human "sweepers" with a large basket on a two-wheel "carraige" that they pushed and swept up street trash. There were about 100 of them at the end of the parade sweeping up the manure and elephant droppings. They were followed by fire engines and sanitation sprayers to keep our fair city immaculate.
For the life of me, I cannot find a soul that remembers where the circus went crosstown. After 72nd, I think the next two-way street was 42nd but no one can recall. I cannot see it happening on 42nd - even of a Sunday AM? I bet you can find out?

oldecapecod 11 wrote:by John Grasso » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:56 pm
"In the Knicks first season 1946-47 they played 26 of their 33 home games at the 69th Regiment Armory
and only seven at Madison Square Garden."

Where did you get that data, John?
Three of their home games were play-off games. What I can find says they were at MSG?
MSG is listed as their home court.
Odd that such a large number are played at an alternative site?

Interesting... two of the players on that team rose to national prominence after their basketball-playing days were done.

My source is the New York Times. A few years ago when I had access to the NYT I photocopied
all the articles from the 1946-47 season among others. The 4/10/47 article states "The New York Knickerbockers
made their way into the semi-final round of the Basketball Association of America's championship
play-offs at the Sixty-ninth Regiment Armory last night." The 4/15/47 article states that
"The New York Knickerbockers were eliminated from the Basketball Association of America play-offs last
night when they bowed, 72-53, to the Philadelphia Warriors at the Sixty-ninth Regiment Armory."

Their first home playoff game that season was at MSG on Saturday 4/5/47. Their only other home
games at the Garden were
Monday 11/11/46 opening night vs. Chicago
Monday 11/18/46 vs. Detroit
Sunday 12/8/46 vs Boston
Thursday 3/13/47 vs St. Louis
Wednesday 3/26/47 vs Providence
Sunday 3/30/47 vs Philadelphia last game of regular-season.

I've got excel spreadsheets of each of the early years of the BAA/NBA with individual game-by-game
scoring. Let me know if you'd like copies.

Thank you for the offer of the spread sheets but I will pass on them. I have enough stuff I "thought" I wanted and now do not know what to do with it.
You might want to advise - hold on, I'll see who -
BasketballReference.com at http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1947.html - - - which I see is now - databaseBasketball.com formerly BasketballReference.com
- advise them of your findings. They make no mention of any venue but MSG nor does Wikipedia which is surprising.

I had completely forgotten about the Circus until lucky mentioned it. Even had I remembered, I would have thought
it was later in the year. 'Course I was in the 1st-Grade in 46/47 and everything seemed different then - bigger, faster,
and probably better. Definitely better. No internet...

BTW, I did not follow the links but there seems to be some connection at the database___com site with a handful
of NYC newspapers - NYX, Daily News, and more...

See bottom left of this page for first season explanation
http://books.google.ca/books?id=abTfAgA ... ry&f=false