QBs who remind you of pitchers ... and vice versa

[bachslunch]

I wonder what pitcher would compare to Kurt Warner, that being said, to have two peeks late on his career with two different teams. Hall of Famer Dazzy Vance starred late for the Brooklyn Dodgers, posting great numbers after being in the minor leagues for the early part of his career, but he didn't had that with another team.

Vance and Warner share the late career start and short HoF-level career, but that's it. Lefty Grove also had a late career start and starred for both the Red Sox and A's, but his career wasn't as short.

[bachslunch]

Johnny Unitas and Sandy Koufax -- They epitomized the ultimate performances of their position.

Besides the long-career/short-career difference between the two, there's the issue of Koufax and "ultimate performance" as a pitcher. No question Koufax was a fine pitcher for a short period (and a deserving HoF-er if you value a short, high peak), but he's not the top dog hurler -- in fact, the thinking over at baseball sabermetric sites is that he and Nolan Ryan are perhaps the two most overrated pitchers in baseball history. Compare Koufax to Pedro Martinez:

Koufax: 2324.1 IP, 49.0 WAR, 131 ERA+, 165-87 W-L.
Martinez: 2827.1 IP, 84.0 WAR, 154 ERA+, 219-100 W-L.

Even with Martinez's extra innings, that's a big difference. Koufax was helped a bit in non-adjusted stats in part by his pitching in hurler-friendly Dodger Stadium during a very pitcher-friendly period.

Not saying Koufax was a schlub, but he wasn't the ultimate pitcher performer, either.

[bachslunch]

Billy Kilmer---Mickey Lolich

Lolich, like Jurgenson, was a big-gut guy who made good (the suggestion of Rick Reuschel was also apt).

[Bryan]

Besides the long-career/short-career difference between the two, there's the issue of Koufax and "ultimate performance" as a pitcher. No question Koufax was a fine pitcher for a short period (and a deserving HoF-er if you value a short, high peak), but he's not the top dog hurler -- in fact, the thinking over at baseball sabermetric sites is that he and Nolan Ryan are perhaps the two most overrated pitchers in baseball history. Compare Koufax to Pedro Martinez:

Koufax: 2324.1 IP, 49.0 WAR, 131 ERA+, 165-87 W-L.
Martinez: 2827.1 IP, 84.0 WAR, 154 ERA+, 219-100 W-L.

Even with Martinez's extra innings, that's a big difference. Koufax was helped a bit in non-adjusted stats in part by his pitching in hurler-friendly Dodger Stadium during a very pitcher-friendly period.

Not saying Koufax was a schlub, but he wasn't the ultimate pitcher performer, either.

I would assume that its easier for a pitcher to compile high ERA+ and WAR in a hitter-friendly era. For Koufax to have matched Pedro's 154 ERA+, he would have needed something like a 0.42 ERA. Koufax made his name in the postseason...0.95 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, 61 Ks in 57 IP.

That said, I was very surprised when MLB trotted him out as one of the 4 greatest living baseball players. If you need a pitcher, give me Pedro, Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens over Koufax.

[SixtiesFan]

Billy Kilmer---Mickey Lolich

Lolich, like Jurgenson, was a big-gut guy who made good (the suggestion of Rick Reuschel was also apt).

There's a big difference between Kilmer and Lolich. Billy Kilmer had a poor performance in Super Bowl VII as his team lost. Mickey Lolich won all three starts in the 1968 World Series and in the seventh game, beat Bob Gibson.

[oldecapecod11]

Bobby Layne and Denny McLain - they win, they gamble, they have John Barleycorn as a mutual friend.

[nicefellow31]

The recent Favre post got me thinking, who does he remind me of? A famous pitcher came to mind, then more pitchers that reminded me of QBs. The comparisons are not perfect, but there are some aspects that are similar. Here's what came to mind on my drive home from work today (yes, it's a long commute) ...


Dan Fouts and Brian Winters of the Milwaukee Bucks and Michael McDonald of the Doobie Brothers -- Okay, not pitchers, just wanted to see if you were still reading.

Reading "minute by minute" Hijacking thread for a minute, when Brian Winters got older and becam a coach, he shaved off the beard and started to look like Lurch from the Adams Family.

[NWebster]

Koufax was great, but I also think people greatly underestimate how friendly a pitchers park Dodger stadium is. We're a couple weeks from the three longest scoreless innings streaks all being held by Dodgers, of entirely differect eras.

[SixtiesFan]

Koufax was great, but I also think people greatly underestimate how friendly a pitchers park Dodger stadium is. We're a couple weeks from the three longest scoreless innings streaks all being held by Dodgers, of entirely differect eras.

In the seventh game of the 1965 World Series, Sandy Koufax beat the Minnesota Twins 2-0 with a 3-hit shutout. This game was at Minnesota in a good hitters park and the Twins had the strongest lineup in baseball that year. Koufax was pitching on two-days rest after a long season. His arm was throbbing with pain and he didn't have a curve ball that day.

Koufax still won. I recall during 1963-66 listening to games on the radio with Koufax pitching. If the Dodgers went ahead 1-0, you'd think-That's it, game's over. And it often was.

[Bob Gill]

In the seventh game of the 1965 World Series, Sandy Koufax beat the Minnesota Twins 2-0 with a 3-hit shutout. This game was at Minnesota in a good hitters park and the Twins had the strongest lineup in baseball that year. Koufax was pitching on two-days rest after a long season. His arm was throbbing with pain and he didn't have a curve ball that day.

Koufax still won. I recall during 1963-66 listening to games on the radio with Koufax pitching. If the Dodgers went ahead 1-0, you'd think-That's it, game's over. And it often was.

Right.

I am not at all unaware of the effects of Dodger Stadium, but I have no hesitation in saying Koufax in those last few years was the best pitcher I've ever seen.