Old Time Football Rules Questions

[debaguley]

I'm working on some research for 1918 and have a few questions that I'm hoping the PFRA members can answer:

1) Extra points - the center has to "kick" or "roll" the ball back to the placekicker?
2) The ball is spotted where the runner is downed even if it's only a few feet from one sideline or the other?
3) Field goals - the ball must be dropped and hit the ground before the kicker kicks it?

Thank you PFRA members, I'm sure I will have some follow ups.

Doug Bigelow

[Mark L. Ford]

On question 1, by 1918, "heeling" the ball backward for the snap was no longer an option. The center snap by hand became an option toward the end of the 19th century.

On question 2, there weren't hash marks on the field until the NFL adopted the rule in 1933 (and college football soon followed).
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult ... 86/?no-ist; in 1918, my understanding is that the ball was placed at the spot where it had become dead; a team could elect to move far enough from the sideline to accommodate the seven man offensive line, but at the cost of a down.

On question 3, placekicking was always legal in football, but the dropkick was the preferred method because of the rounder shape of the football (and because it gave the kicker more time and didn't tie up a holder). By 1918, the shape of the ball had changed to make the forward pass (legalized just 12 years earlier) easier, but the dropkick was still feasible.

[Bob Gill]

1) Extra points - the center has to "kick" or "roll" the ball back to the placekicker?

I wonder if this question is a result of seeing references to a "punt-out" before an extra point. If so, here's what I THINK the rule was at the time:

After a touchdown, the teams lined up for the extra point on the 2-yard line, but not necessarily in the center of the field. Instead, the ball was placed directly opposite the spot where it crossed the goal line. So if the runner went over, let's say, 15 yards from the sideline, the kick had to be made at an extreme angle. In those cases, the team that scored had another option. The player who scored (or maybe anybody on the scoring team) stood in the end zone at the spot where he crossed the goal line and punted the ball out to a teammate who lined up more in the middle of the field; the teammate had to catch the ball, then dropkick it through the uprights. That mean it was a significantly longer kick than a normal extra point attempt, and also, I believe he didn't have any blockers in front of him. As soon as he caught the ball, the other team charged him (probably from a certain set distance, like 10 yards) in an effort to block the kick.

Anyway, that's how I think the punt-out worked. Even if that's right, it's possible that they weren't doing it any more by 1918, but I know they did SOMETHING like that during the earlier Thorpe years, 1915-17.

[luckyshow]

In 1918, the punt-out rule as well as the XP placement rule were still in effect and it wasn't changed until 1920 when it became virtually what it is today. The punt-out, sometimes called a kick-out was a free kick, meaning no blocking or defense blocking attempts (like with a kick after a safety). If the punt-out team dropped the ball, it could be recovered by opposition and play continued from there. By the way the ball was placed opposite where it went over the goal line. The ball was placed 15 yards out and that was where the XP kick was attempted (remember the goal posts were on the goal line). Punt outs were kicked from the end zone and had to go at least that far I believe. The point after kick had to be from placement, I don't think under the old rules, the point after could be by dropkick (considered easier in the day). I always think I have this rule backwards, but I do think it was the way I say.

I think if you wanted to risk it you still could snap the ball back by rolling it, but not by kicking it.

The ball always has to touch the ground before kicking it at the goal posts for a score. In 1869 and still...

Before the forward pass, they sometimes kicked it to a receiver. Known as a quarterback-kick, and also called variously a quick kick or a onside kick, I have found 5 instances of this occurring in games, four between 1907 and 1911, and a 1919 example called a hidden inside QB kick, which was probably illegal by that time, but was allowed...

High school rules allowed field goals to occur on a kickoff through the goal posts. I have found 4 examples, all from Wisconsin in 1946. There was and may still be such a rule in Philadelphia's Public League, I found a 1997 example in a JV game....

The shape of the ball did not start changing until 1931, with the full change to what was at first called "the Little Potato Ball" in 1934. That nickname came from Michigan where such bullet-nosed thinner balls began appearing, known as Bootleg Balls in 1928. Perhaps Benny Friedman used them. Certainly Tom Brady would have...

The rules were relaxed in 1911-1913. The field was shortened from 110 yards and an end zone was introduced. Before this time, passes could only be thrown from a specific box behind the line, incomplete passes reverted to the opponent and various other restrictive rules that inhibited the passing game, which had first been legalized in 1906. In 1912, a touchdown went from being worth 5 points to 6. By 1913 all of the basics of today's rules were in effect, 4 downs to make 10 yards, etc, all except the extra point rule

[debaguley]

Thanks guys for the info. One thing thats a little miffing to me still is the grid. When exactly was it used and when did they eliminate it?

So, if the runner went down 1 foot from the sideline, and the line had to set up right where the runner went down, and they decided not to forfeit a down to move it to mid-field, does that mean the center would basically be right next to the sideline and the rest of the line would be unbalanced on is side?

[rhickok1109]

Thanks guys for the info. One thing thats a little miffing to me still is the grid. When exactly was it used and when did they eliminate it?

So, if the runner went down 1 foot from the sideline, and the line had to set up right where the runner went down, and they decided not to forfeit a down to move it to mid-field, does that mean the center would basically be right next to the sideline and the rest of the line would be unbalanced on is side?

When the forward pass was legalized in 1906, the rule required that the passer had to be five yards to either side of the center. To help the referee enforce this rule, the field was marked with vertical lines at 5-yard intervals. Since there were already horizontal lines at 5-yard intervals because a team was required to gain 5 yards in three downs, the result was a grid.

The rule was changed in 1910 to allow a pass from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage and the vertical lines were then eliminated.

[luckyshow]

From http://profootballdaly.com/the-tackle-eligible-play/ It is also related in my old book on the Giants...
<Check out this alignment the Giants sprang on the Bears in 1934, one that made the center, Hall of Famer Mel Hein, eligible:



Wilfrid Smith of the Chicago Tribune described it thusly:

The Giants shifted to a spread formation. Such a formation, with three eligible pass receivers [to] the right, always causes the defense to spread to meet a pass with secondary consideration for a run or plunge. The end men on the line of scrimmage and the backs are eligible to receive passes. Seven men must be on the offensive scrimmage line when the ball is passed by the center.

The Bears immediately dropped into a six-man defensive line and shifted three men to cover the Giants’ eligible receivers on the right side of the Giant[s] formation. Naturally, most of the fans watched these men, thinking a pass would be thrown to one of them. There was a Giant[s] end to the left of center Hein. Then, without warning, this end shifted one yard back from the line of scrimmage. This change made him a “back,” and to meet the rule specifying seven men on the line of scrimmage, a back shifted up to the line [indicated by the dotted line position].

As soon as one second had elapsed after this shift, another rule requirement, Hein passed the ball back between his legs to quarterback Harry Newman, directly behind him. Newman then handed the ball back to Hein, between Hein’s legs, and Hein ran with it, making 13 yards before he was downed by the Bears’ secondary.

When Newman handed the ball back to Hein it was a forward pass. Hein, the end man, was eligible to receive this pass and after receiving it to run.

George Musso, the Bears’ right tackle, had lined up approximately even with the Giants’ end, who later shifted into the backfield. Hein ran inside of Musso. The play was so unexpected that most of the Bears did not see the pass.>