Hacksaw Reynolds VS Matt Millen

[74_75_78_79_]

Neither will ever make Canton, likely enough not HOVG either. Both however have similar enough careers. Millen added to Raiders in ’80 what Hack would add a year later to his new team just across the Bay. What each did to help whatever team they were on can’t be measured in stats. Each one’s leadership went a long way, each a ‘quarterback’/‘coach’ of their respective defenses. If you had to pick one for your D, who do you pick? This one’s tough.

[Gary Najman]

I would choose Reynolds, as I don't think the 49ers reach Super Bowl XVI without him. But Millen also was a key part of the 49ers defense a few years later. Both were solid and consistent.

[74_75_78_79_]

With Matt Millen actually a Canton nominee this year, I then revive this thread by asking why not Hack as well? I am a 'small Hall' kind of a guy like just about everyone in here is, as I was inspired to be by this very forum. Millen with just one Pro Bowl and Reynolds with an extra one over him. Both can't be measured in stats or Pro Bowl selections. Its they each being a 'QB'/player-coach of the Super Bowl champion defenses they were on.

Matt hopping on in 1980 and he, despite being a DL at Penn St, not only playing MLB instead but being the immediate leader of that unit - not Stork nor Rod. Many say that newly drafted secondary is what did it for those '81 Forty Niners, more here say the addition of Dean. Well, if not the #1 reason all by himself, then Jack at least being 'tied' for 1st! Big-time coach/'quarterback' of that defense as well. You can say that each case for them is based on 'theory'. I'll jack-it-up to say, 'hard' theory! Do the Raiders win SBXV (and SBVIII) without Millen? San Fran wins XVI & XIX without Hack? And that '89 SF team...that 'extra wrinkle' of Millen showing up seems to never be mentioned, just seen as an already established juggernaut that would have won-it-all anyway.

I'm not saying they should be voted in nor go beyond the first round of voting. But with the field now already stretched to what it now is (BIG Hall), and Millen is already nominated, then why NOT Reynolds? Joined-at-the-hip, I like to think. Both so even. I'm still torn. Jack with that extra Pro Bowl selection, and Matt with the two extra SB-wins albeit that last SB he 'coached' on the sidelines for that event (which leads us right back to...vital not-measured-in-stats/Pro Bowls leadership).


PS - and as I've opined before, Detroit should not at all be held against MIllen. Yes, he was a great commentator, but I will always wonder why he never tried coaching? Same with Hack!

[SeahawkFever]

With Matt Millen actually a Canton nominee this year, I then revive this thread by asking why not Hack as well? I am a 'small Hall' kind of a guy like just about everyone in here is, as I was inspired to be by this very forum. Millen with just one Pro Bowl and Reynolds with an extra one over him. Both can't be measured in stats or Pro Bowl selections. Its they each being a 'QB'/player-coach of the Super Bowl champion defenses they were on.

Matt hopping on in 1980 and he, despite being a DL at Penn St, not only playing MLB instead but being the immediate leader of that unit - not Stork nor Rod. Many say that newly drafted secondary is what did it for those '81 Forty Niners, more here say the addition of Dean. Well, if not the #1 reason all by himself, then Jack at least being 'tied' for 1st! Big-time coach/'quarterback' of that defense as well. You can say that each case for them is based on 'theory'. I'll jack-it-up to say, 'hard' theory! Do the Raiders win SBXV (and SBVIII) without Millen? San Fran wins XVI & XIX without Hack? And that '89 SF team...that 'extra wrinkle' of Millen showing up seems to never be mentioned, just seen as an already established juggernaut that would have won-it-all anyway.

I'm not saying they should be voted in nor go beyond the first round of voting. But with the field now already stretched to what it now is (BIG Hall), and Millen is already nominated, then why NOT Reynolds? Joined-at-the-hip, I like to think. Both so even. I'm still torn. Jack with that extra Pro Bowl selection, and Matt with the two extra SB-wins albeit that last SB he 'coached' on the sidelines for that event (which leads us right back to...vital not-measured-in-stats/Pro Bowls leadership).


PS - and as I've opined before, Detroit should not at all be held against MIllen. Yes, he was a great commentator, but I will always wonder why he never tried coaching? Same with Hack!

I don’t think I’d vote for either candidate for Canton, but if one is to be nominated and not the other, I would have preferred Reynolds by a bit.

Reynolds in addition to his 49er days, also made a pro bowl and was on some really good defenses in Los Angeles in the 70’s.

That said, it’s pretty close.

[JohnTurney]

Millen started right away, so there is that. He was a bigger player, a run stuffer (he'd often get replaced on passing downs) and had all the leadership qualities

Reynolds didn't start right away; he won the job in 1973, but part of that, not all, was Bob Stein getting dinged in camp. There were years he was on the field in nickel, but more years when he wasn't. But you'd have to call both a two-down player ...

I do think, though, when he was on field was a better pass defender ... but it's not like he was good at it. He got by in smarts.

Hacksaw was like an on field coach in terms of Xsand Os. I don't think Millen was that kind of guy, to that degree. He seemed more of an emotional leader, tough guy kind of guy, a bit of an intimidator.

I can think both might be HOVG but I can think of OLBers (Rod Martin for one) who would be better for HOVG.

[SeahawkFever]

Millen started right away, so there is that. He was a bigger player, a run stuffer (he'd often get replaced on passing downs) and had all the leadership qualities

Reynolds didn't start right away; he won the job in 1973, but part of that, not all, was Bob Stein getting dinged in camp. There were years he was on the field in nickel, but more years when he wasn't. But you'd have to call both a two-down player ...

I do think, though, when he was on field was a better pass defender ... but it's not like he was good at it. He got by in smarts.

Hacksaw was like an on field coach in terms of Xsand Os. I don't think Millen was that kind of guy, to that degree. He seemed more of an emotional leader, tough guy kind of guy, a bit of an intimidator.

I can think both might be HOVG but I can think of OLBers (Rod Martin for one) who would be better for HOVG.

One thing Rod Martin would have over them both is that while Millen and Reynolds were on successful defenses and won championships, Martin had three picks in a Super Bowl win (I've seen some people say they would have given him and Jim Plunkett co-MVP's of that Super Bowl).

[JohnTurney]

, Martin had three picks in a Super Bowl win (I've seen some people say they would have given him and Jim Plunkett co-MVP's of that Super Bowl).

I think Martin should have been MVP, but QBs usually get the spoils of a win. Martin had a very good career, several defensive TDs and would get to the QB pretty often..not as much as the 'rushbackers' of the day. He also was the 1983 AFC Defensive Player of the Year (UPI)

I look at him as a Greg Lloyd-type, for rough comp