Pro Football Hall of Fame question

[JameisBrownston]

The pre-NFL players I recall discussing on here are Peggy Parratt and Norm Sacksteder (spelling?). Why were they not the selections?

Also, I take it coaches are on the same ballot as players? I don't assume Halas, Lambeau, and Chamberlin are getting in as players.

[TanksAndSpartans]

When my research pulled me from western PA to Ohio, I thought Parratt was going to wind up being Ohio's Brailler, but he’s proving me wrong. Evidence supports Parratt as a top Ohio League player (1908 comes to mind so far), but similar to Sacksteder, the issue is the back position is so competitive. My focus is on players, but you could consider Parratt a contributor as well. Keith McClellan makes the strongest case for Parratt I've read going so far as to call him a genius.

Finally, don’t sell Chamberlin short - I think he’s HOF without coaching. Chris Willis’s latest book has him as the 1st team end with Hutson for 1920-45.

[JuggernautJ]

When my research pulled me from western PA to Ohio, I thought Parratt was going to wind up being Ohio's Brailler, but he’s proving me wrong. Evidence supports Parratt as a top Ohio League player (1908 comes to mind so far), but similar to Sacksteder, the issue is the back position is so competitive. My focus is on players, but you could consider Parratt a contributor as well. Keith McClellan makes the strongest case for Parratt I've read going so far as to call him a genius.

Finally, don’t sell Chamberlin short - I think he’s HOF without coaching. Chris Willis’s latest book has him as the 1st team end with Hutson for 1920-45.

I'm glad to see you're opinion of Parratt has improved!


I think when we include the totality of his life in football he has a decent case for the Hall of Very Good.
He is in already the Football Learning Academy's Hall of Honor.
He's been on the ballot for the HoVG a few times but has yet to reach it... hopefully after Christensen (or simultaneously).

Coffin Corner article:
https://www.profootballresearchers.org/ ... 06-008.pdf

[conace21]

The pre-NFL players I recall discussing on here are Peggy Parratt and Norm Sacksteder (spelling?). Why were they not the selections?

Also, I take it coaches are on the same ballot as players? I don't assume Halas, Lambeau, and Chamberlin are getting in as players.

The first classes were designated specifically for players. Lambeau and Halas appeared on the ballot for their playing careers, and apparently a number of people either didn't pay attention, or ignored the instructions, and voted them both in.

Chamberlin is a different story. He certainly had an outstanding record as a coach. But I remember at the 2021 PFRA National Convention in Canton, John Maxymuk gave a presentation on Chamberlin. I remember him saying that Chamberlin the coach always had a great record when he had Chamberlin the player suited up.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I think when we include the totality of his life in football he has a decent case for the Hall of Very Good.

I agree. He'll have my vote next time. Post-scandal, things could have been even worse for pro football. He was one of the key figures in keeping the train on the tracks, and a good player in his own right. Off the top of my head (I can check if anyone is interested), there was a game account around 07/08 that noted that Shelby was using the passing game pretty much as their game plan as opposed to a method of last resort kind of thing. Parratt was the QB that game.

[readjack]

The first classes were designated specifically for players. Lambeau and Halas appeared on the ballot for their playing careers, and apparently a number of people either didn't pay attention, or ignored the instructions, and voted them both in.

Thanks Adam. Where did you get that the first class was supposed to be players only? The original nomination list in Dec. 1962 listed a section of "non-players nominated" with both Halas and Lambeau: Bell, Carr, Cusack, Halas, Hay, Lambeau, Mara, Marshall, Neale, Owens, Ray, Rooney, Storck, Ward.

I don't have the 1963 PFHOF program but the 1964 program introduces Halas this way: "George Halas enters Pro Football's Hall of Fame through many portals: Player, or Coach, or Founder." His bust (https://readjack.wordpress.com/2024/08/ ... l-of-fame/) says "Founder, Owner, Coach."

Lambeau's intro in the 1964 program: "Curly Lambeau like George Halas holds many tickets to The Hall of Fame; Player, or Coach, or Founder."

Obviously the original class included Bell, Carr, Mara and Marshall too. Thoughts?

[Brian wolf]

I am still amazed every owner of every NFL team wasnt inducted by the Class Of 1969.

[JeffreyMiller]

I have been thinking about the statement made earlier about the HOF not being established at an earlier date. I am wondering if the HOF had been founded in 1936 (as Leo Lyons had proposed) if we wouldn't be questioning the selectors' recency bias. Cases in point are Wayne Millner and Joe Guyon, two players who are often cited by modern pundits as weak candidates for induction. Let's say the HOF began in 1940, the selectors present at that time would have actually witnessed the exploits of Tony Latone, Lavvie Dilweg, Vern Lewellyn, Joe Alexander, Swede Youngstrom, possibly Peggy Parrat, etc. Would some of these men have been enshrined because Halas, Mara, Bell, etc., saw them play and liked them as players (or as friends)? If so, would that have been a preemptive correcting of an injustice we now recognize, or would we be saying some of their selections were weak and biased (like Guyon or Millner)?

[readjack]

I have been thinking about the statement made earlier about the HOF not being established at an earlier date. I am wondering if the HOF had been founded in 1936 (as Leo Lyons had proposed) if we wouldn't be questioning the selectors' recency bias. Cases in point are Wayne Millner and Joe Guyon, two players who are often cited by modern pundits as weak candidates for induction. Let's say the HOF began in 1940, the selectors present at that time would have actually witnessed the exploits of Tony Latone, Lavvie Dilweg, Vern Lewellyn, Joe Alexander, Swede Youngstrom, possibly Peggy Parrat, etc. Would some of these men have been enshrined because Halas, Mara, Bell, etc., saw them play and liked them as players (or as friends)? If so, would that have been a preemptive correcting of an injustice we now recognize, or would we be saying some of their selections were weak and biased (like Guyon or Millner)?

Great question. I think there will always be views that someone is a weak choice. The impact of starting the Hall earlier is that some of those 1963 slam dunks would not have been eligible yet, opening space for others. Specifically, a PFHOF that started in 1946 could not have Baugh, Hein, Hutson or Nagurski in its inaugural class. A PFHOF that started in 1936 would also remove Bert Bell, Dutch Clark, Cal Hubbard, George Preston Marshall, Blood McNally, maybe Ernie Nevers and maybe Tim Mara.

As for Dilweg and Lewellen in particular, in 1946 the Press-Gazette polled readers for an all-time Packers team, with these vote totals:

1. Don Hutson — 1,798
2. Clarke Hinkle — 1,789
3. Mike Michalske — 1,738
4. Cal Hubbard — 1,734
5. LAVVIE DILWEG — 1,551
6. Johnny Blood — 1,545
7. Charlie Brock — 1,538
8. VERNE LEWELLEN — 1,442
9. Arnie Herber — 1,364
10. Buckets Goldenberg — 1,174
11. Cub Buck — 1,087

Curly Lambeau published his own starting 11 that year and also had Dilweg and Lewellen. So I do think that a Hall that started earlier would have had some of what you termed "a preemptive correcting of an injustice we now recognize."

[conace21]

The first classes were designated specifically for players. Lambeau and Halas appeared on the ballot for their playing careers, and apparently a number of people either didn't pay attention, or ignored the instructions, and voted them both in.

Thanks Adam. Where did you get that the first class was supposed to be players only? The original nomination list in Dec. 1962 listed a section of "non-players nominated" with both Halas and Lambeau: Bell, Carr, Cusack, Halas, Hay, Lambeau, Mara, Marshall, Neale, Owens, Ray, Rooney, Storck, Ward.

I don't have the 1963 PFHOF program but the 1964 program introduces Halas this way: "George Halas enters Pro Football's Hall of Fame through many portals: Player, or Coach, or Founder." His bust (https://readjack.wordpress.com/2024/08/ ... l-of-fame/) says "Founder, Owner, Coach."

Lambeau's intro in the 1964 program: "Curly Lambeau like George Halas holds many tickets to The Hall of Fame; Player, or Coach, or Founder."

Obviously the original class included Bell, Carr, Mara and Marshall too. Thoughts?

Hi Jack. I was talking about the 1946 class in Kirk's exercise, not the actual 1963 class. It looks like you quoted my response, but not JameisBrownston's question to which I was responding.

Jameis asked about Parrat and Norb Sacksteder, and why they were not the first pre-NFL players chosen for Kirk's exercise. I didn't have an opinion on that, so I didn't answer it, but that led me to understand that he was talking about Kirk's project, and not the actual HOF inductions.

He then asked/said that he assumed coaches were on the same ballot as players for Kirk's exercise, and that he didn't see Halas, Lambeau, and Chamberlin getting in as players. I agreed with him on the first two, but I felt that Chamberlin's playing career alone was worthy of early induction.