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[GameBeforeTheMoney]

There is no question that race has played a factor at QB in NFL history. Same with MLB, FS, and C. As far as Williams in particular - and remember - Tampa was 2-26 before Doug Williams got there. And Hugh Culverhouse Jr. thought Williams' contract requests were fair. In fact, he later tried to rectify things.

Via the Tampa Bay Times:

"Fortunes changed for a time when the Bucs spent a first-round draft pick on Williams. Black quarterbacks didn't start in the NFL, but McKay wanted the Grambling star. The Bucs rode Williams' arm to the NFC Championship Game in 1979 and to two more playoff appearances.

In 1983, Williams asked for a raise from $120,000 to $600,000 a year. Culverhouse Sr. stood firm at $400,000. Williams jumped to the United States Football League. A skein of 14 consecutive losing seasons ensued for the Bucs.

Culverhouse Jr. still winces at the thought. Last year, he dug into his own pocket and offered an atonement for his father's sin: a $1-million gift to the Grambling State University football program, where Williams is coach.

"He deserved better," Culverhouse Jr. said."

Also, remember that Warren Moon had to go to Canada to play QB. After upsetting Michigan and winning the MVP in the Rose Bowl. How many Black QBs were in the NFL when Moon finally got there? One. Warren Moon.

Things have changed so much that it's difficult to remember the stigma against Blacks at quarterback and other positions.

[readjack]

"A team drafts him but doesn't want him?" You can draft someone and still undervalue them. The key man who got Tampa to draft Williams in the 1st round was offensive coordinator Joe Gibbs, who then went to San Diego in Williams's second season. Gibbs of course then became Washington's head coach and brought Williams back from the USFL.

I don't know why you're acting like the NFL doesn't have a history of racism and that white executives didn't apply anti-Black sentiments into their decisions around quarterbacks and head coaches. Warren Moon won the Rose Bowl and still had to go to Canada to play quarterback. He didn't get back into the NFL until he won five Grey Cups. When Williams went to the USFL, the only Black head coach in NFL history was still Fritz Pollard. This isn't a "false race card." It's not even a race card. It's just the facts of the NFL during Williams's career.

[Brian wolf]

How Joe Ferguson was the highest paid QB, is anyones'guess? Either a hell of an agent or some tenure clause for starting?

James Harris had an owner in Rosenbloom who didnt support him and never reached his potential. The owners can get away with racism all they want but the player still has to perform.
Marlin Briscoe had more TD passes as a rookie with Denver than John Elway but went back to receiving the following year with another team. Had he had support and more development at QB, could Lou Saban had won more games and kept his job?

Like Jack says, racism happened but Williams had every chance to succeed wherever he has been. Only until the end of 1987, did he ever reach his potential. I felt Doug had one of the strongest arms in NFL history but he was erratic as well. Accuracy has probably held back more QBs who are black, than anything else but until Warren Moon(maybe Harris or Gilliam as well) most QBs didnt fight enough to stay a QB over converting to receiver or defensive back. Kordell Stewart could do anything, including being a RB but didnt have the accuracy to succeed long at QB. Neither did Vince Young, who everyone thought had staying power.

[readjack]

There is no question that race has played a factor at QB in NFL history.

...

Things have changed so much that it's difficult to remember the stigma against Blacks at quarterback and other positions.

Bingo.

[readjack]

Good talk everyone. My initial comment that Culverhouse interrupted Williams's PFHOF is an overreach because it's simply not possible to know, and he was still finding his way in Tampa. But we can't say that this was all about passing accuracy or even salary demands and not make note of how white owners treated Black quarterbacks. Briscoe had a great rookie year and Saban still forced him out of Denver, with the league moving him to WR. Moon was the Rose Bowl MVP, told teams not to draft him if they weren't going to play him at QB, so they didn't draft him, and he still had to win five Grey Cups and multiple MVPs before getting the Oilers to sign him. The Raiders never let Eldridge Dickey play quarterback. The Rams rejected a not-yet-30-year-old Shack Harris after a Pro Bowl and three postseasons.

As for Williams, I looked at his five years in Tampa compared to the first five years of these 1st round QBs, plus Theismann, since someone brought him up: Plunkett/Manning/Pastorlini '71, Theismann '74, Bartkowski '75, Todd '76, Kramer '77, Simms '79. Over their first five seasons, here were Williams's ranks:

* Yards / game: 2nd (188.8 to Kramer's 206.7)
* TD%: tied for 3rd (3.9% behind Kramer's 4.2 and Plunkett's 4.1)
* INT%: 1st (3.9%, ahead of Kramer's and Simms's 4.3%)
* TD-INT difference: 1st (0, even at 73-73, ahead of Kramer -3, Simms -4 and Theismann -10)
* Rating: 2nd (66.2 to Kramer's 71.0)
* Sack%: 1st (3.4%, ahead of Kramer's 5.6%)
* Seasons starting a playoff game: 1st (3, ahead of Bartkowski and Kramer with 1 apiece)
* Combined top 10 finishes in triple crown categories: 2nd (tied with Kramer at 5, behind Plunkett at 7)

Again, looking at just those first five years, Williams was the only player with multiple playoff seasons, at 3. He was the only one who won a playoff game. He ranked well in a number of stats, both compared to others and in the league overall. He stayed healthy. He turned around a terrible franchise. And to get paid, he had to go to the USFL. I get it: the $600k he was asking for is a lot, and the $400k he was offered is also a lot. But he was also badly underpaid for most of his career, at $120,000 in 1982, which was 8th on the Bucs alone, a team that ranked toward the bottom of payroll.

There were some outstanding QBs in 1982 making less than $400k (Montana, K. Anderson, Fouts, Dickey, White, Theismann) but there were backups making more than Williams's $120k (Hogeboom, Evans, Avellini). Kramer made $100k in 1982, but in 1983 the Vikings signed him to a two-year extension that Vikings GM Mike Lynn called "the biggest contract in the history of the team."

I find it difficult to look at how owners and GMs were treating white QBs vs. Black QBs in the 1970s and early 1980s and not think that the Bucs would have found a way to pay a white Doug Williams what he asked for in 1983.

[Bryan]

My initial comment that Culverhouse interrupted Williams's PFHOF is an overreach because it's simply not possible to know

Or simply not based on any evidence.

[readjack]

My initial comment that Culverhouse interrupted Williams's PFHOF is an overreach because it's simply not possible to know

Or simply not based on any evidence.

Ha okay bro, sounds good. Onward!

[Brian wolf]

Haha ... If Williams had just taken the 400,000 from Tampa, this whole conversation would be moot. Would he have continued to develop? Could Gibbs have still tried to obtain him after Theismann's horrific injury?

[readjack]

Haha ... If Williams had just taken the 400,000 from Tampa, this whole conversation would be moot. Would he have continued to develop? Could Gibbs have still tried to obtain him after Theismann's horrific injury?

Great point. Just looking statistically, he was consistently progressing in Tampa. Passing yards per game rose every year, from 117.0 to 230.1. Completion percentage rose every year, from 37.6% to 53.4%. Rating rose and then dropped a bit, getting up to 76.8 in 1981 and dropping to 69.6 in the strike year. He kept INTs and sacks low. AY/A rose thru '81 and then dropped in '82. The numbers show a tough year in that shortened season. Maybe they would have looked better if that was a full season.

[Brian wolf]

Had Williams stayed in TB, maybe Giles makes the HOF? Kevin House had big-play ability but was never consistent. Imagine had Williams had a Lofton or Wes Chandler?