1950's Detroit Lions

[RichardBak]

I interviewed Lary a couple times over the years but never asked him about that '58 game. Wish I had, though I doubt he'd say anything beyond a simple, "Well, it didn't work...that time." That's all it was. A gimmick that didn't work...that time. Dan Campbell would understand. Win some, lose some. No grand conspiracy to throw a game or beat the spread or burn Cleveland's ass or whatever.

The Lions were losing 12-0 before storming back in 3Q to take a 17-12 lead. Doesn't seem like a team laying down and trying its best to lose. They also intercepted a Conerly pass in the closing minutes after NY had taken a 19-17 lead. If the fix was in, why didn't the DB just drop the ball?

When Lary took off on 4th-and-21 at his own 43 YL early in 4Q, he was attempting a pet maneuver---take a few steps, maybe draw in the safety, then decide whether to kick or keep on running. He'd run out of punt formation 3 other times in his career up to that point--and he averaged exactly 21 yards each time. This was the first time he didn't get the first down. From newspaper accounts, it appears that once he started running he couldn't stop and plant himself to kick on the icy field, so he just kept on motoring. Only got 2 yards. After the game, Lary, Tobin Rote, and George Wilson all took blame for the call. Recall that a year earlier, in the title game vs the Browns, Rote pulled off a fake FG for a TD that broke the game wide open. So it's not like the Lions weren't used to trick plays. In fact, earlier in '58, Terry Barr and Gene Gedman had pulled off a trick lateral on a KO return that resulted in a 104-yd TD, the Lions' longest scoring play of the entire decade.

As far as the missed FG....Harland Svare leapt and blocked Martin's last-minute try with his left wrist. Martin had a powerful leg and prior to 1958 was used principally for the kind of long-distance, low-trajectory kicks that were beyond the ability of guys like Doak Walker and Bobby Layne, the principal placekickers up until that season. Martin had a lousy FG pct. in 1958, hitting just 36% (7 of 19), including some from close in, such as the one against the Giants. But a couple years later, he became the first kicker ever to boot two 50-yd FGs in the same game.

[Saban1]

You could be right. That run by Lary did look to me like he just ran straight to the right and out of bounds. It could be that Coach Wilson did call the play (he said he did) and Lary was just following the coach's orders, even though he may have thought it was a bad idea.

I don't doubt that Lary did run for 1st downs for distances of 21 yards or more while in punt formation on some occasions. I have seen it done many times by different punters, but it is usually when they see an opening and think that they can go for the opening and make a first down. I am not sure that it is done very much as a called play.

Detroit was out of contention at the time of the game, so there just was not much incentive to win and thus eliminate the Giants from contention in the Eastern Conference and put Cleveland into the championship game with Baltimore. I don't think that the Browns were one of Detroit's favorite teams. You can probably see where it would look suspicious.

Apparently, the film of that part of the game was taken off of You Tube because I was just looking for it. There is a tape of that game out there. I don't know how difficult it is to get a copy.

[Saban1]

I interviewed Lary a couple times over the years but never asked him about that '58 game. Wish I had, though I doubt he'd say anything beyond a simple, "Well, it didn't work...that time." That's all it was. A gimmick that didn't work...that time. Dan Campbell would understand. Win some, lose some. No grand conspiracy to throw a game or beat the spread or burn Cleveland's ass or whatever.

The Lions were losing 12-0 before storming back in 3Q to take a 17-12 lead. Doesn't seem like a team laying down and trying its best to lose. They also intercepted a Conerly pass in the closing minutes after NY had taken a 19-17 lead. If the fix was in, why didn't the DB just drop the ball?

When Lary took off on 4th-and-21 at his own 43 YL early in 4Q, he was attempting a pet maneuver---take a few steps, maybe draw in the safety, then decide whether to kick or keep on running. He'd run out of punt formation 3 other times in his career up to that point--and he averaged exactly 21 yards each time. This was the first time he didn't get the first down. From newspaper accounts, it appears that once he started running he couldn't stop and plant himself to kick on the icy field, so he just kept on motoring. Only got 2 yards. After the game, Lary, Tobin Rote, and George Wilson all took blame for the call. Recall that a year earlier, in the title game vs the Browns, Rote pulled off a fake FG for a TD that broke the game wide open. So it's not like the Lions weren't used to trick plays. In fact, earlier in '58, Terry Barr and Gene Gedman had pulled off a trick lateral on a KO return that resulted in a 104-yd TD, the Lions' longest scoring play of the entire decade.

As far as the missed FG....Harland Svare leapt and blocked Martin's last-minute try with his left wrist. Martin had a powerful leg and prior to 1958 was used principally for the kind of long-distance, low-trajectory kicks that were beyond the ability of guys like Doak Walker and Bobby Layne, the principal placekickers up until that season. Martin had a lousy FG pct. in 1958, hitting just 36% (7 of 19), including some from close in, such as the one against the Giants. But a couple years later, he became the first kicker ever to boot two 50-yd FGs in the same game.

Here is what Sam Huff said about the punt-run in that 1958 game in his book "Tough Stuff":

"In our next game, we played the Detroit Lions, knowing we had to win to stay alive. We thought we were dead late in the game when the Lions held a 17-12 lead, but their coach, George Wilson, made one of the more bonehead calls in the history of the league to let us off the hook. The Lions had a five-point lead and the ball and were facing fourth and twenty-one at their own forty-four. Wilson got the punting team on the field, but then called for a fake and then run by his kicker, Yale Lary. We tackled him for a 1-yard gain and took over with great field position."

Huff went on to write about the rest of the game, which I have already written about. When I saw the film, it looked to me like Lary took the snap and immediately turned to his right and ran straight out of bounds with not any hesitation or even slowing down to see an opening to run or an open receiver.

To put it another way, if the 1958 Lions were still in contention in the Western Conference and needed to win that game with the Giants, then I doubt that there would have been any call to run while in punt formation on a 4th and 21 yards situation late in the game with a 5 point lead.

[RichardBak]

One of the maxims of football is: It's only a bonehead play when it doesn't work. Otherwise it's pure genius.

[Sonny9]

When Lary took off on 4th-and-21 at his own 43 YL early in 4Q, he was attempting a pet maneuver---take a few steps, maybe draw in the safety, then decide whether to kick or keep on running. He'd run out of punt formation 3 other times in his career up to that point--and he averaged exactly 21 yards each time.

What was the distance needed for the first downs on those 3 previous attempts and were they on an icy field? That's the rub imo
Passing game was horrible, 6-20 passing for 32 yards, 2 pics, sacked for -18. Seasons over, offense isn't going anywhere, so why not take a chance mentality? I think that may have played into it.

The video I watched, it's hard to see the entire field, but it doesn't look like there is anyone near him except the tackler who forced him out of bounds

[Brian wolf]

The Browns had every chance to take the eastern division but lost all three games to the Giants that season. Despite most people ranking either Lombardi or Brown as the greatest coach ever, Brown was 0-5 in the postseason without Otto. His other three losses were to the Lions and Rams.

[Saban1]

The Browns had every chance to take the eastern division but lost all three games to the Giants that season. Despite most people ranking either Lombardi or Brown as the greatest coach ever, Brown was 0-5 in the postseason without Otto. His other three losses were to the Lions and Rams.

Tea in China?

I have posted stuff about the 1958 Browns-Giants games a few years ago in more detail if anyone wants to look it up.

A short version: The Browns were winning their first game 17 to 14 late in the game, but a roughing the kicker penalty turned the game around and the Giants won 21 to 17.

In the second game, a tie would have won the Eastern Conference for Cleveland, but late in the game with the score tied, Gifford caught a pass, ran a few steps and then fumbled. A referee called it an incomplete pass and the Giants got another chance. Game films showed that it was a fumble. I have read this in a few places. The Giants got the ball back and went on to score on Summerall's famous field goal.

The Browns then had to go back to New York and play the Giants again in a game they felt they should not have had to play, and lost 10-0.

[Brian wolf]

Yeah, the Summerall kick was a miracle win but the Browns had no life in the playoff loss. Giants players felt they were too predictable. Brown and the Bengals were shutout in a playoff loss to the Colts in 1970. Once again, the Colts players felt Brown and the play-calling were too predictable. Ken Anderson--replacing Cook and Carter--did better in the 1973, 1975 playoffs but played stronger teams in the Dolphins and Raiders. Had Anderson led the Bengals to victory against the Raiders, he would have made the HOF ... he still might make it as a senior this year. Younger voters remember him ...

[Saban1]

How did this get about Paul Brown? I thought this was a Detroit Lions thread.

Actually, I thought Brown did pretty well at Cincinnati even though he was in his 60's at the time. How did Shula, Landry, Gibbs, etc. do in their 60's?

Brown's Bengals won their division in 1970, a record for the fastest expansion team to do this at the time. Their 1973 team won their division over a pretty tough Pittsburgh team with a 10-4 record and his 1975 team was 11 and 3. Bad luck being in the same division as Pittsburgh who got good about the same time as the Bengals and were one of the most talented teams ever.

He had some of the greatest high school teams during the 30's, and a National Championship at Ohio State and even did well with military football during WW2.

[Saban1]

Yeah, the Summerall kick was a miracle win but the Browns had no life in the playoff loss. Giants players felt they were too predictable. Brown and the Bengals were shutout in a playoff loss to the Colts in 1970. Once again, the Colts players felt Brown and the play-calling were too predictable. Ken Anderson--replacing Cook and Carter--did better in the 1973, 1975 playoffs but played stronger teams in the Dolphins and Raiders. Had Anderson led the Bengals to victory against the Raiders, he would have made the HOF ... he still might make it as a senior this year. Younger voters remember him ...

About that playoff game in 1958: I remember not even watching that game because I felt that the Browns would lose. There was something about it and losing the 13 to 10 Summerall game that made me seem to know it. So, as far as Cleveland playing without much spirit in the playoff, I think that I can understand how it was.