Your Unpopular Football Opinions

[CSKreager]

The Packers have been overrated underachievers since losing SB 32 save for the outlier that was 2010

[Saban1]

How about we delve into the Browns-Lions rivalry of the 50's again. In 1950, the Cleveland Browns entered the NFL, a league that was very hostile to them. Cleveland's record over their first 6 years in the NFL (1950-55) was 58 wins, 13 losses, and 1 tie for a .817 winning percentage, a winning percentage that has never been matched in any 6 year stretch by any team since. So, why so much trouble with the Detroit Lions? Maybe I can supply some of the answers here:

1. Detroit was a great football team and was loaded with talent.

2. Marion Motley had his knee injured in the 1951 training camp and was never the force again that he was during his prime years (1946-50). In fact, Motley had lost his starting fullback job to Chick Jagade by the time of the 1952 NFL Championship game with Detroit. In 1951, the 2 leading rushers for the Browns were Dub Jones and Ken Carpenter. Motley had been Cleveland's leading rusher every year before 1951.

3. Mac Speedie never played in any championship games against the Detroit Lions. In 1952, Mac was injured and didn't play in the title game. Speedie played in Canada after that. I think that Cleveland could have really used Speedie (and a prime Motley) in those championship games against Detroit.

4. Lou Rymkus retired after the 1951 season and never played against Detroit (except maybe preseason). Rymkus was the Browns best pass blocker and Cleveland sure could have used him against an aggressive team like Detroit.

5. The Lions had a reputation for being dirty, kind of like the Raiders of the 70's. In a film of the 1952 championship, rookie Darrell Brewster, in for the injured Mac Speedie, caught a pass and was trying to run out of bounds when he was slugged by a Detroit player. It looked like he was knocked out and was replaced by punter Horace Gillom at left end for the rest of the game. One player for another team said that he always tried to get out of pile ups as soon as possible when they played Detroit or something would happen to him in the pile up.

6. The 1952 Championship. Cleveland was really hurting in that game. Injured were Mac Speedie, Dub Jones, and tackle John Kissell and all three missed the game. Speedie and Jones were 2 of the Browns main receivers. They were replaced in that game by rookies Brewster and Ray Renfro. Lou Groza had injured ribs and missed 3 field goals in that game, maybe due to his rib injury. Detroit won 17 to 7.

7. The 1953 Championship. I would say that Detroit got the breaks in that one. In one play Bobby Layne was sacked on 3rd down on their own 2 yard line. It looked like they would have to punt from the back of their end zone. But then, a huge break for Detroit as roughing was called on Don Colo. So, Detroit got a first down on their own 17 yard line. It looked to me like Colo just tripped over somebody at the end of the play. I saw a Browns player pleading with the official after the call.

After a Browns TD, Cleveland kicked off and the ball was fumbled by a Lions player. There was a scramble for the ball and Cleveland recovered on Detroit's 4 yard line. Coach Buddy Parker was really looking nervous on the Detroit sideline when a referee said it was the Lions ball as the whistle had blown. Don't know if those calls were good or not but they sure were big in Detroit's 1 point victory (17 to 16).

8. 1952 was Cleveland's worst of their championship (Otto Graham) era. Their record was 8 wins and 4 losses and the Browns actually backed into winning the Eastern Conference that year. Cleveland lost their season finale against the Giants, but the Eagles lost out on a tie by losing their last game to Washington. Paul Brown said that there was an attitude problem with the team that he had to weed out. In 1953, there was a 15 player trade with Baltimore which may have been part of the weeding out process.

9. Otto Graham said that his attitude reeked in 1952 as he was getting tired of the training camps and the separations from his family and was starting to think of retirement. He had his worst passing stats in 1952, I think. His stats may have been worse in 1950, but all the old NFL teams were up for them that year. If so, he more than made up for it in the 1950 Championship game.

10. So. just as Cleveland was starting to slip in 1952, the Lions were getting good, very good. It goes to show that once a team on top starts to slip a little, there is always someone ready and willing to take their place at the top.

Here are a couple things I forgot before, so here:

I noticed that from 1953 on in the 50's, Detroit always appeared on Cleveland's schedule the year following when the Lions had a better year than the Browns. Here we go:

1. In 1953, Detroit beat Cleveland in the championship game, 17 to 16. Detroit was on Cleveland's schedule in 1954.

2. In 1956, Detroit almost got into another championship game with a 9 and 3 record. Cleveland's record was 5 wins and 7 losses in 1956. Detroit was not only on Cleveland's schedule in 1957, but the game was after Detroit's Thanksgiving Day game, so the Lions had 10 days between the Thanksgiving Day game and their game with the Browns. Three extra days to rest and prepare for the Browns game.

3. In 1957, Detroit beat Cleveland 59 to 14 in the championship game. Of course, the Lions were on the Browns schedule in 1958.

I know that the fact that Cleveland had trouble with Detroit made a lot of NFL people happy, so was Detroit on Cleveland's schedule following when Detroit had a better year than Cleveland just a coincidence? I wonder.

By the way, the Browns only played the Bears twice during the 1950's. Cleveland won both games, 42 to 21 in 1951 and 39 to 10 in 1954.


I saw Paul Brown on a film once and a reporter asked him why the Browns had so much trouble with Detroit. Brown said that Detroit Head Coach Buddy Parker hired someone to spy on Cleveland's practices from a rented house across the street from where the Browns had their practices (League Park). Brown said that this hurt the Browns a lot. Don't know how true that is, but I know that Parker hated to lose, more than most.

[Bryan]

I saw Paul Brown on a film once and a reporter asked him why the Browns had so much trouble with Detroit. Brown said that Detroit Head Coach Buddy Parker hired someone to spy on Cleveland's practices from a rented house across the street from where the Browns had their practices (League Park). Brown said that this hurt the Browns a lot. Don't know how true that is, but I know that Parker hated to lose, more than most.

I remember reading something like if you included preseason games and Pro Bowl games, Buddy Parker was 8-1 against Paul Brown at one point. As for attributing this to Parker "spying" on Brown, I think its interesting that a Parker-less Lions team went 3-0 against Paul Brown in 1957 & 1958, while Buddy Parker himself went 0-4 against Paul Brown in that same timeframe. Perhaps the Lions were just really good?

[Brian wolf]

I concur ... the Lions were better against them. Layne won a championship game with a last minute TD pass, it might have been the same game where Graham had chapped, damaged hands--solvent?--which made passing difficult. The Browns were held to one TD despite over 200 rushing yards in their other championship loss. Close games ...

Don Doll and later Jim David were HOVG players from Chris's Crew.

[Saban1]

I saw Paul Brown on a film once and a reporter asked him why the Browns had so much trouble with Detroit. Brown said that Detroit Head Coach Buddy Parker hired someone to spy on Cleveland's practices from a rented house across the street from where the Browns had their practices (League Park). Brown said that this hurt the Browns a lot. Don't know how true that is, but I know that Parker hated to lose, more than most.

I remember reading something like if you included preseason games and Pro Bowl games, Buddy Parker was 8-1 against Paul Brown at one point. As for attributing this to Parker "spying" on Brown, I think its interesting that a Parker-less Lions team went 3-0 against Paul Brown in 1957 & 1958, while Buddy Parker himself went 0-4 against Paul Brown in that same timeframe. Perhaps the Lions were just really good?

Preseason and Pro Bowl games?

The Lions WERE really good! I think I did concede that the Lions were more dominant after Otto Graham retired in head to head games, but maybe not so much before that. In championship games during the early 50's there was that 56 to 10 game in 1954, and Cleveland did have some pretty good excuses in the other two games, as mentioned in my posts.

[7DnBrnc53]

The Packers have been overrated underachievers since losing SB 32 save for the outlier that was 2010

They were overrated going into SB 32 as well. In addition, I know someone who thinks that the 96 Packers are one of the two worst SB winners ever (along with the 2001 Pats).

[Citizen]

I can't dispute that the Packers didn't make they hay they could have with 30 years' worth of Hall of Fame quarterbacks.

But the idea that the '96 team is one of the worst Super Bowl winners is simply insane. They had both the top-ranked offense and defense. They had the MVP. They went 5-2 during a stretch without their #1 and #2 wide receivers. Their average margin of victory was 21 points. They were predicted by almost everybody to win it all and they did.

Not exactly a fluke.

[Bryan]

They were overrated going into SB 32 as well. In addition, I know someone who thinks that the 96 Packers are one of the two worst SB winners ever (along with the 2001 Pats).

The 96 Packers were the first team since the 72 Fins to score the most points and allow the fewest...kind of an impressive feat in a 30-team league.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

Having watched pretty much every minute of both the Packers 96 and 97 seasons in real time live on television, I can attest to the fact that they were a complete team on many fronts. IMHO, anyone that claims that the Packers were overrated against the Broncos undermines the outstanding job Denver's coaching staff did putting together game plans on both sides of the ball, the outstanding job they in the 2 weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, and the incredible difference Steve Atwater made in that game.

About the Packers I'll say this - they had a unique combo on offense with an all-time great at QB in his prime, an outstanding running game, excellent receivers, an outstanding tight end, and very importantly, one of the best blocking backs in the game at that time in William Henderson. The difference guys like that make aren't quantified, but Henderson was a key part of preventing sacks and with success in the running game. The OL was at least above average. The Packers were of course exceptional of defense with Reggie White and Gilbert Brown on the line, Leroy Butler in the secondary. Guys like Seth Joyner, Santana Dotson, and Sean Jones (who retired before SB 32) were unsung guys who made a huge difference.

The thing that Packers team did perhaps better than any team I've seen in my 40+ of watching the NFL was the ability to score touchdowns on their last possession of the first half and their first possession of the second half. Somebody mentioned a 21-point margin of victory, and that's where those came from. They may have had a 3 point lead halfway through the second quarter but early in the third it would be 17. It was incredible to watch it happen what seemed to be week in and week out.

I thought the Packers would roll the Broncos going into SB 32. The Steelers had many dropped passes against Denver and I was confident that the Packers receivers would make those catches. But the Broncos had an exceptional defensive game plan, coupled with the fact that Holgrem was, IMHO, way too conservative at times. It is remarkable that the Packers had such a wide avg margin of victory because Holmgren started milking the clock halfway through the third quarter on a regular basis. It surprised me that he didn't exploit Denver's secondary down the middle more in SB 32, but Denver did an amazing job of putting pressure on Favre particularly with Atwater. Plus, they found a way to neutralize Gilbert Brown which previously very few teams had done. Leading in the the game there was tremendous hype about the Packers, and Denver did a super job of letting the Packers believe their own press. I remember Elway giving a television interview and saying something to the effect of that the Packers were a great team, probably impossible to beat, and we just have to see what happens. I thought, "does even Elway think they have a chance?" That, I believe in chatting with players afterward, that was one small aspect in a Broncos game plan that was nearly flawless - and carried out to a t.

[7DnBrnc53]

I thought the Packers would roll the Broncos going into SB 32. The Steelers had many dropped passes against Denver and I was confident that the Packers receivers would make those catches. But the Broncos had an exceptional defensive game plan, coupled with the fact that Holgrem was, IMHO, way too conservative at times. It is remarkable that the Packers had such a wide avg margin of victory because Holmgren started milking the clock halfway through the third quarter on a regular basis. It surprised me that he didn't exploit Denver's secondary down the middle more in SB 32, but Denver did an amazing job of putting pressure on Favre particularly with Atwater. Plus, they found a way to neutralize Gilbert Brown which previously very few teams had done. Leading in the the game there was tremendous hype about the Packers, and Denver did a super job of letting the Packers believe their own press. I remember Elway giving a television interview and saying something to the effect of that the Packers were a great team, probably impossible to beat, and we just have to see what happens. I thought, "does even Elway think they have a chance?" That, I believe in chatting with players afterward, that was one small aspect in a Broncos game plan that was nearly flawless - and carried out to a t.

Wow, uh, I don't think this opinion is shared by a lot of people.

For one, if the Steelers had several dropped passes against Denver, point them out to me because I don't remember. Also, in the regular season, the Broncos dropped several passes. If they hadn't, that game wouldn't have been in the confluence (shouldn't have been, anyway because that Steeler team should also have lost @NE, to Wash, and @Arz).

Also, those SB Packer teams (while not the worst SB winners ever) weren't as great as people think. Favre was good, but overrated. Levens and Bennett were meh as RB's, and they didn't have as good of an o-line as Denver's. Plus, while they had a good D-line, their LB's and CB's were trash (they should have drafted Bobby Taylor in 95 instead of Craig Newsome).