Your Unpopular Football Opinions

[74_75_78_79_]

Very intriguing debate, these last few posts, on this Det/Clev 1950s stuff! Not as strong an inter-conference rivalry as Bears/Washington from a decade or so earlier, but better to me than '70s Steelers/Cowboys despite obvious biased stuff from myself!

This reminds me of the final scene of what I feel may, very well, be the Greatest one-season TV series of All-Time. The kind of one-season triumph that makes you so very sad that it only lasted one season (Season 2 would have been so Awesome). What 'Happy Days' or 'Sopranos' would have been seen as had it somehow wasn't picked up for a second season. The series I'm talking of is...'Freaks and Geeks'! PLEASE see if you haven't already! Eighteen episodes in which each one is better - more progressive - than the one prior! This especially goes for if you're a Detroit-fan!!

Anyways the character, Lindsay, is being sent-off by her family, via-bus trip, to a summer field trip that involves academics. Her younger brother's two friends suddenly show up to wish her goodbyes. One of them, Neal, had a crush on her the entire series thus far. He bought her chocolates. The other, Bill, didn't have such a crush on her at all so didn't get her anything; just wishing her a goodbye. Yet, Lindasy kisses BOTH goodbye before getting onboard the bus. As phrased, it didn't cost Bill a cent!

Well, sort-of reminds me of this! Browns of the '50s were more winningest, appeared in more title games, etc. Yet, the Lions had three World Championships! And so did Cleveland! And, yes, Detroit had their # all along as well!

Man, I've said it numerous times already in that the '57 Browns were like the '91 Lakers. Yes, Browns still had Paul Brown whilst LA still had Magic. No more Kareem (nor Pat Riley) and no more Otto though. Yes, '57 and '91 respectively SO different, and distant-enough, than the years prior.

Let's just say that Dallas, who loses 14-3 at the 'Burgh in Wk#9 and finishes 11-5 top-seed, actually makes it to Pasadena in January '80! And let's say that they, actually...BEAT PITTSBURGH!! Yup! Now BOTH finish the 1970s with three World Championships as well!! Yes, it'd mean that it'd be entertained that Big D wins the 'tie-breaker' due to they still being the more winningest team than the Steelers. And they still making the playoffs more times as well as appearing in more CCs along with more SBs...6 to 4! But the 'Burgh would have still beat them in the Big Game, 2-1, as Detroit prior to aforementioned '57 did vs Cleveland. Yes, it'd still be debate-enough, but would you seriously, unanimously, give Dallas the 'Team of the 1970s' tag??

Maybe had the Browns been in the NFL in '46 already, we as well as myself would be thinking totally differently. Their work in the '40s reeks of they likely being at their peak (man that '48 'jewel' of a squad). But we can never be completely sure.

And though rules-were-rules, everyone played by them, getting swept by Giants doesn't at all "taint" their '50 title. If NYG deserved it, then they simply complete the 'hat-trick' (heck, win at least one of the two that Clev DID win in the first place)! Just like the '67 Rams should have still went into wintry Wisconsin and did it again a couple weeks later (I'll ALWAYS respect the Pack more than the Rams in '67 because of that; if every playoff game has to be at home in order to be able to win a title...yeah)!

But Browns, despite 11-1 and beating Rams in LA by 15, still didn't get it done when they had to in the very end. And those '51 Rams, to me, were good overall at 8-4, Classic offense, but nothing special on defense thus making them the team that more-stronger and balanced Cleveland should have beaten handily (IMO the 2018 Rams, for their time/"adjusting inflation", were a stronger team than '51 up until the title game; again JMHO). Yet Browns did NOT finish to deal! Yes, close losses to Lions next two years (as Dallas lost close to Steelers), but a loss is a loss thus Cleveland played a little of a '90 Bills precursor with three-straight bride's maids finishes! So this adds illumination to the argument that they weren't really that "most-dominant" ever.

Amazing run! Paul and Otto are Rushmore guys indeed! But all I just said...

[7DnBrnc53]

This reminds me of the final scene of what I feel may, very well, be the Greatest one-season TV series of All-Time. The kind of one-season triumph that makes you so very sad that it only lasted one season (Season 2 would have been so Awesome). What 'Happy Days' or 'Sopranos' would have been seen as had it somehow wasn't picked up for a second season. The series I'm talking of is...'Freaks and Geeks'! PLEASE see if you haven't already! Eighteen episodes in which each one is better - more progressive - than the one prior! This especially goes for if you're a Detroit-fan!!

Anyways the character, Lindsay, is being sent-off by her family, via-bus trip, to a summer field trip that involves academics. Her younger brother's two friends suddenly show up to wish her goodbyes. One of them, Neal, had a crush on her the entire series thus far. He bought her chocolates. The other, Bill, didn't have such a crush on her at all so didn't get her anything; just wishing her a goodbye. Yet, Lindasy kisses BOTH goodbye before getting onboard the bus. As phrased, it didn't cost Bill a cent!

I know this is a football forum, but that was a great show. Too bad there wasn't a season 2.

Man, I've said it numerous times already in that the '57 Browns were like the '91 Lakers. Yes, Browns still had Paul Brown whilst LA still had Magic. No more Kareem (nor Pat Riley) and no more Otto though. Yes, '57 and '91 respectively SO different, and distant-enough, than the years prior.

That is a great analogy. Never thought of that.

[Bryan]

And though rules-were-rules, everyone played by them, getting swept by Giants doesn't at all "taint" their '50 title. If NYG deserved it, then they simply complete the 'hat-trick' (heck, win at least one of the two that Clev DID win in the first place)! Just like the '67 Rams should have still went into wintry Wisconsin and did it again a couple weeks later (I'll ALWAYS respect the Pack more than the Rams in '67 because of that; if every playoff game has to be at home in order to be able to win a title...yeah)!

That comparison makes no sense. The Rams didn't play in the same division as GB, beat the Packers twice, then 'tie' for the division and still have to play another game against GB to win the division. The Browns shouldn't have had a 'third crack' at the Giants; they benefited from the rules of the time to still be alive at the end of the season. The comment that NYG didn't "deserve it" because they didn't defeat Cleveland three times is ludicrous. And I don't understand your bolded statement at all. The Browns winning the 50 title was like when Alabama defeated LSU in the National Championship game...thus winning the title despite not even winning their division in the regular season. Its not really a sign of 'dominance', IMO. Its being able to benefit from good circumstance. If the Giants didn't "deserve it" for not going 3-0 against the Browns in 1950, then the Browns definitely didn't deserve it by going 0-2 against the Giants in the regular season.

But Browns, despite 11-1 and beating Rams in LA by 15, still didn't get it done when they had to in the very end. And those '51 Rams, to me, were good overall at 8-4, Classic offense, but nothing special on defense thus making them the team that more-stronger and balanced Cleveland should have beaten handily

That 1951-1953 Western division was probably the most competitive in NFL history. Rams, Lions, Niners, Bears....all top teams. The Browns had a cakewalk on the other side of the ledger. I think the Browns were probably better but they were lucky to win the 50 title against the Rams, and Van Brocklin was the difference in the 51 title game. Do you actually view the 51 title game as some type of upset? I don't.

[Saban1]

I don't agree that today's tiebreaker system is the best way to settle a division tie. I believe that the best way to settle it is with a playoff game, like it used to be done. I believe that the reason that it was changed to tiebreakers is because of television and today's multiple playoff games. Just because they do it that way today doesn't make it the fairest way. That is just my opinion for what it's worth.

[Citizen]

I know this is a football forum, but that was a great show. Too bad there wasn't a season 2.

Indeed. I was a high school senior in a small midwestern city during the school year that show takes place in, and I'm telling you, they nailed it. The characters, the clothes, the music, the teachers, all of it. There was recently a documentary about F&G, and surprisingly, most of the cast said they were thrilled with the show's legacy and that it was for the best that it ended the way it did.

[7DnBrnc53]

I know this is a football forum, but that was a great show. Too bad there wasn't a season 2.

Indeed. I was a high school senior in a small midwestern city during the school year that show takes place in, and I'm telling you, they nailed it. The characters, the clothes, the music, the teachers, all of it. There was recently a documentary about F&G, and surprisingly, most of the cast said they were thrilled with the show's legacy and that it was for the best that it ended the way it did.

What is the name of the documentary?

[Citizen]

I don't know if or where it's streaming, but here it is: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8178670/

[Jay Z]

That comparison makes no sense. The Rams didn't play in the same division as GB, beat the Packers twice, then 'tie' for the division and still have to play another game against GB to win the division.

The Rams only played the Packers once that year, in LA, after the Packers had already clinched a playoff spot. The Packers also played the Colts only once, on the road as well. That was two of their four losses, a third came in the meaningless last game against Pittsburgh.

The Packers actually did beat the Colts twice in 1965, then had to win again in a playoff game.

[Saban1]

I believe that the Cleveland Browns were the greatest team in football during the All-America Conference years (1946-49). That is just my opinion, but I think that I can prove it. Here goes:

1. Cleveland Browns 35 Philadelphia Eagles 10. For the opening game of the 1950 season, the Cleveland Browns played the Philadelphia Eagles in Philadelphia. This was billed as a showdown between the 4 time AAFC champion (1946-49) Cleveland Browns against the 2 time NFL champion (1948-49) Philadelphia Eagles (the first unofficial Super Bowl if you will).

Cleveland won easily as the Eagles had trouble covering Cleveland's receivers Lavelli, Speedie, and Dub Jones. People were expecting the Eagles to show that the Browns were merely the best of a bunch of minor league teams.

Of course, players like Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Bill Willis, Lou Groza, and Frank Gatski were not yet known as the great players that they were, but just some of the better players of a bush league.

That was only one game, but it is evidence that the Browns were as great or greater than the NFL's best.

2.Six straight Conference titles in the NFL (1950-55). This is still a record which will probably never be broken, but also shows that Cleveland was great in any league, The fact that Cleveland could be the dominant team after joining the NFL in 1950 is further evidence that Cleveland was great before in the AAFC. I believe that it is ludicrous to think that the Browns just suddenly became much better in 1950 than they were during the late 1940's.

3. Defense. Starting in 1946, Cleveland led whatever league they played in by least points allowed an incredible 10 out of 12 seasons. They were second in 1950 (by 3 points) and in 1952. What else needs to be said except that the Browns had a lot of great players on their defenses as well as their offenses.

4. Receivers. Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones. After Cleveland's 35 to 10 opening game win over the Eagles, a Philadelphia defensive back said that covering the Browns receivers was like trying to cover three Don Hutsons...impossible.

5. Offensive line. Cleveland's offensive lines were always good all the way through the 40's, 50's, and 60's, and I believe that they were the best throughout the Graham era. Two Hall of Fame players (tackle Lou Groza and Center Frank Gatski) and tackle Lou Rymkus, who many think should be in the HOF. Their guards in the AAFC were usually Ed Ulinski and Lin Houston and were considered good players with Bob Gaudio as a reliable back up at guard. Marion Motley would often help out with the pass blocking which I believe made Cleveland the best at pass blocking in all of football.

6. Otto Graham. Graham was considered by many to be the best quarterback in pro football.

7. Marion Motley. I think a shoo in as best running back during his prime years which included all his years in the AAFC. Also a great blocker as has been mentioned many times on this forum.

8. Paul Brown. Just seemed to have the Midas touch when it came to football. Everything he touched seemed to turn to gold. Great success in high school football, college football, and even military football before starting the Cleveland Browns in 1946. Otto Graham said that Brown was light years ahead of the rest. Basically invented the playbook, and carried film study to greater levels among other things. He was very well organized as were his teams.

9. Kicking Game. Horace Gillom was the best punter of his time and Lou Groza was the best place kicker.

10. Hall of Fame players. Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Marion Motley, Bill Willis, Lou Groza, and Frank Gatski make 6 Cleveland players in the HOF during their AAFC days, and those players continued to prove themselves worthy of the honor after joining the NFL in 1950. 6 HOF players is more than any other team during that period and the fact that Mac Speedie isn't included is a travesty in my opinion.

Having more HOF players in itself is not proof that the Browns were the greatest team, but it does add to the evidence.

I am sure that there is more, but let's see what we have here. The Cleveland Browns during their years in the All-America Conference had the best coach (Paul Brown), the best quarterback (Otto Graham), the best receivers (Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones). the best fullback (Marion Motley), the best defense, the best offensive line, and the best kicking game.

So, as they say in a court of law, by the preponderance of the evidence, the Cleveland Browns were the greatest team in football during the time of the All-America Conference (1946-49).

On this forum, I think that most would agree with that premise because the people here are mostly very knowledgeable football fans, but among casual fans, there could be a lot of people that don't agree.

I should have mentioned that all 6 HOF players for Cleveland (Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Marion Motley, Bill Willis, Lou Groza, and Frank Gatski) played all 4 years (1946-49) in the AAFC for the Browns.

There were 9 other Cleveland players that also played all 4 years in the All-America Conference for the Browns, and there is plenty of evidence to show that they ranged from very good to great players. They were:

(1) Mac Speedie - Should be in the HOF. Led AAFC in receptions 3 times (1947, 1948, and 1949) and also led the league in total receptions over the entire 4 year span. Also led the NFL in receptions in 1952.

Missed 1952 championship game due to an injury and played in Canada after that. Might have made a difference in 1952 and 1953 championship game losses to Detroit.

(2) Lou Rymkus - Was one of the best tackles of his era. Was used as a model for pass blocking for younger players by Paul Brown, who called Rymkus the best pass blocker ever. Played a lot on defense as well during Cleveland's first couple of years (1946-47).

Was among 15 players as finalists for Hall of Fame in 1988, but did not make final cut.

(3) Lou Saban - Best linebacker in AAFC during those years and maybe all of football. Even though Saban played almost strictly on defense, was made All-AAFC at center as a special consideration in 1948 and 1949 because they did not name all-league or all-pro teams for defensive positions before 1950.

Retired to start a coaching career in 1950, and I am sure was sorely missed by the Cleveland Browns after they entered the NFL in 1950.

(4) Edgar "Special Delivery" Jones - Second highest rusher behind only Marion Motley for Cleveland during AAFC years. Averaged 7 yards per carry in 1946 and 6.4 yards per carry in 1947. Paul Brown called him his greatest clutch runner.

Retired, then decided to play in Canada in 1950 where he made an all-star team.

(5) Ed Ulinski - Was named 2nd team all-league at guard in 1946 and 1948. Like Saban, Ulinski retired to go into coaching after the 1949 season. With another guard, Bob Gaudio, also retiring, it was necessary for Cleveland to buy Abe Gibron from the Buffalo Bills in 1950 to go along with Weldon Humble and Lin Houston as Cleveland's guards in 1950.

(6) Cliff Lewis - Played safety and backed up Otto Graham at quarterback. Led AAFC in interceptions over the 4 year period of the league's existence with 24 interceptions.

(7) Lin Houston - Played right guard from 1946 through 1953 for the Browns. Was named 2nd team all-pro in the NFL by the United Press in 1951.

(8) John Yonakor - Cleveland's right defensive end from 1946-49). Paul Brown called Yonakor the Browns best defensive end behind only Len Ford and Paul Wiggin during Brown's 17 years with Cleveland.

Was sold to the New York Yanks in 1950 due to the fact that Len Ford had been picked up in the AAFC dispersal draft in 1950, and there was a 33 player limit in 1950. Ironically, Ford was passed by in that draft by every NFL team and by most of them twice.

Yonakor also played in Canada in 1951 and for the Washington Redskins in 1952.

(9) George Young - Played 8 years for Cleveland from 1946 through 1953, and was the starting left defensive end for the Browns for most of that time. I think that a player had to be pretty good to play 8 years for Cleveland during that era.

George Young later became an umpire in the American Football League for almost the entire 10 years before the AFL officially was merged with the NFL in 1970 (played each other in regular season games). Young was umpire for the first Super Bowl game between Green Bay and Kansas City and also the first AFL championship game in 1960.

I posted this about Cleveland's years in the All America Conference (1946-49) about 7 years ago, but after the NFL stuff about the Browns-Lions rivalry, I thought I would bring this back about Cleveland's years in the AAFC, the first part of Cleveland's championship run.

BTW, Mac Speedie has since been inducted into the Pro Football Hall Of Fame.

[7DnBrnc53]

I don't know if or where it's streaming, but here it is: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8178670/

Thanks.