"Three Studs on the O-Line" article

[oldecapecod11]

I guess I saw Marion Motley play but I didn't know it. I went to a lot of Giants' games when I was 10 and 11. The shame is,
I never kept the 10-cent program that my Father got me every time. Then, toward the end of the season, if I had been
pretty good, he would get me the 50-cent Yearbook. (I'll bet Mike has a few of those?)
Anyway, it would have been nice to see Motley and understand what he was doing and his value to the team.
Same with Sammy Baugh.
But... a guy I did see play is a guy I would have liked to see in that era too - on both sides of the ball - and that was
Cookie Gilchrist. There was no one tougher. No one... and that includes your Jim Nance and Jim Brown and anyone else
you want to throw into the mix. I bet that Carlton would have done himself proud as a do-everything Fullback and been
a pretty mean stud as a Linebacker too?
(IMO, of course...)

[Saban1]

I guess I saw Marion Motley play but I didn't know it. I went to a lot of Giants' games when I was 10 and 11. The shame is,
I never kept the 10-cent program that my Father got me every time. Then, toward the end of the season, if I had been
pretty good, he would get me the 50-cent Yearbook. (I'll bet Mike has a few of those?)
Anyway, it would have been nice to see Motley and understand what he was doing and his value to the team.
Same with Sammy Baugh.
But... a guy I did see play is a guy I would have liked to see in that era too - on both sides of the ball - and that was
Cookie Gilchrist. There was no one tougher. No one... and that includes your Jim Nance and Jim Brown and anyone else
you want to throw into the mix. I bet that Carlton would have done himself proud as a do-everything Fullback and been
a pretty mean stud as a Linebacker too?
(IMO, of course...)

We got the Cleveland Browns' games on TV where I live when I first started watching sports on TV. That was 1951, which was the year that my parents got their first TV set (a used Zenith). I don't remember Motley from 1951. The running backs for Cleveland that I remember from 1951 were Dub Jones and Ken Carpenter.

I watched more in 1952 and 1953 (sometimes I played football (sandlot) on Sundays, so I did not see all of the Browns games then). I remember that Chick Jagade was Cleveland's main fullback then. I remember watching a game which I believe was in 1953 and Motley came into the game. Somehow I knew that Marion Motley had been a great player in the past, but was now past his prime and only played occasionally (I turned 11 during football season in 1953).

I wish that I had seen Marion Motley during his prime years (1946-50), but I have seen him on film and could tell that he was a great ball carrier and blocker in those days. During his prime, I believe that he averaged over 6 yards per carry for those 5 years. Playing from 1951 through 1953 with his bad knees brought his average down to 5.7 yards per carry, which I think is still the best ever (the great Jim Brown averaged 5.2 yards per carry for his career).

[BD Sullivan]

Dr. Z wrote about how the NFL downgraded Motley because they saw the worn down version that was struggling with injuries. Of course, his dominance came in the AAFC, which did have some suspect teams, but Motley took full advantage of that.

[Saban1]

Dr. Z wrote about how the NFL downgraded Motley because they saw the worn down version that was struggling with injuries. Of course, his dominance came in the AAFC, which did have some suspect teams, but Motley took full advantage of that.

The NFL also had some pretty bad teams during the days of the All-America Conference (1946-49), most notably the 1949 New York Bulldogs. Bobby Layne was QB for that team and was going to quit football due to taking such a fierce beating week after week. The Bulldogs did manage to win one game that year.

The Bulldogs owner (Ted Collins, who was also singer Kate Smith's manager) was so in need of money that he (or the coach) kept cutting players until only 17 players were suiting up for games at the end of the year.

As a result of their need for money, in 1950 the Bulldogs sold the rights to Doak Walker to Detroit and also traded Layne to Detroit for Bob Mann and probably some cash. Those deals helped make Detroit a powerhouse during the 1950's.

[oldecapecod11]

While working on a little project, I had reason to glance at both "Browns" web sites.
Something just LEAPED from the page and SMACK! But... it was something that was MISSING!
Guess what?
Neither the Baltimore "Browns" nor the "Imitation" Browns have retired a number to honor Marion Motley.
The crumbling Browns of the Cuyahoga have #76 retired for "The Toe" but nary a digit for Motley.
Though NOT a Browns' fan for more reasons than the shabby way they always treated my bloved Giants,
I still found this very disappointed.
I mean: Great is Great - no matter what!

[Saban1]

While working on a little project, I had reason to glance at both "Browns" web sites.
Something just LEAPED from the page and SMACK! But... it was something that was MISSING!
Guess what?
Neither the Baltimore "Browns" nor the "Imitation" Browns have retired a number to honor Marion Motley.
The crumbling Browns of the Cuyahoga have #76 retired for "The Toe" but nary a digit for Motley.
Though NOT a Browns' fan for more reasons than the shabby way they always treated my bloved Giants,
I still found this very disappointed.
I mean: Great is Great - no matter what!

What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.

I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.

BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957.

[coachtj]

....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking.

[Saban1]

....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking.

Very good analysis Coach. Very good OL with Gifford, Webster, and Triplett running the ball, later joined by Phil King and Joe Morrison. Conerly an underrated QB with Tittle coming in 1961. And that defense with Robustelli, Grier, Modzelewski, and Katcavage (maybe the first fearsome foursome), with Huff, Svoboda, Livingston, and Scott as linebackers and Patton, Lynch, and Linden Crow then Barnes as DB's. No wonder those Giants were so tough. It didn't hurt to have Lombardi coaching the offense and Landry coaching the defense either.

[Saban1]

....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking.

Very good analysis Coach. Very good OL with Gifford, Webster, and Triplett running the ball, later joined by Phil King and Joe Morrison. Conerly an underrated QB with Tittle coming in 1961. And that defense with Robustelli, Grier, Modzelewski, and Katcavage (maybe the first fearsome foursome), with Huff, Svoboda, Livingston, and Scott as linebackers and Patton, Lynch, and Linden Crow then Barnes as DB's. No wonder those Giants were so tough. It didn't hurt to have Lombardi coaching the offense and Landry coaching the defense either.

Forgot about Em Tunnell, another great in the Giants' defensive backfield through 1958.

[oldecapecod11]

Saban » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:17 pm
"What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.
I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.
BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957."----
coachtj » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:40 pm
"....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking."

- - - - -

You both took the words from the tips of my fingers. This keyboard is practically making strokes of its own.
Yes! Yes! Yes! and Yes!
There was not a better trio in Football than Brown, Stroud and Wietecha in their day. It was an era when players
went to camp to get in shape after spending the off-season at their other jobs. They worked and did not have
the time to do drugs and beat up women and run dog shows.
Brown had a gym mat tied to a tree in his back yard. That was his blocking dummy - all year long.
Only a few know that much of the Giants' success earlier was Mel Hein's ACCURACY snapping the ball.
Well, Wietecha was selected in that mold. He could consistently hit the crossbar from the 10 at least nine
out of 10 times and did it often for the benefit of the press.
Toss into the mix he played 10 seasons and never missed a game. ('Course not too many did in those days...)
Stroud was. as tj states, rock solid. Charlie did not have golden wheels and yet, again per tj, there were very few sacks.
Whoops! Almost forgot... if you look at some old film and find a few rare stills, you'll see #79 and #66 on the goal line D.
Yup! That's Brown and Stroud.
Boo Hoo! I wish you guys would have commented on the exclusion of Marion M from the "Numbers Retired"
in Cuyahoga country...
One more kudo for Ray Wietecha... he snapped, among others, for Ben Agajanian and, if I recall, the placement
of the ball had to be slightly different and Ray got it there with no problem.