Better Head Coach, George Halas or Chuck Noll?

[74_75_78_79_]

In my top-5 HCs all-time, I opine Papa Bear being at #4 with the Emperor the next slot down. Do I have Chuck Noll outside my 'Rushmore' because I truly feel the four above are each just above him? Or could it possibly be me subconsciously trying to be a "fair" unbiased Steeler-fan? More-so the former for now. I was wrong, however, to recently opine that there was "no debate" who was better between Lombardi and Noll. As Bryan corrected, there can be a nice debate even if you still think Vince was better (me comparing no Taylor/Hornuing '67 to no Franco/Rocky '76 AFCC not a good example for me to give). Again, perhaps I was being too unbiased for the sake of being unbiased.

But back to Halas vs Noll - quite the apples/oranges debate, two different kinds of HC-ing careers, but a discussion I feel quite intriguing and worthy.

I always say that '89 (and '84) was Chuck's finest performance(s), but I really should stop overlooking the simple culture-change he made upon arriving in the 'Burgh! As many here remind, he took a franchise bamboo-deep-rooted in losing and turned them into perennial competitor/champion rather quick considering! And had he never bothered being a HC which - Thank God - wasn’t the case, he would have gone down as one of the greatest DCs ever.

And in each stint as a HC in his 40+ years, Halas fielded at least one championship-caliber team (I count '65 as one of them; 9-1 run, beating Packers & Colts). I strongly feel he would have competed for SBs had he HC'd in the '70s, '80s, and so on.

So what do you all think? Should Chaz break into my MtR, or simply stay put?

[Brian wolf]

They were both great and successful, with excellent assistants and both had a dominating decade with a great QB, though I felt Halas--who was the owner--was more consistent over the long haul.
Tough to say who was better but they both believed in physical, no-nonsense-running the ball-play defense-football ... Both also could have had more championships had they not underestimated QBs like Bobby Layne and Dan Marino.

[Bryan]

If I needed a coach to win one game, I would choose Noll over Halas. I think Noll had the more difficult task in creating a winner. Its easier when you are creating a team from scratch IMO, and to an extent Halas was on a level playing field with everyone else in the NFL the same way Paul Brown was in the AAFC. Noll was at a disadvantage because many of the other franchises had established stars and were proven winners. The Steelers team Noll inherited was low on talent and the franchise had consistently been terrible for 35 years. Noll took a team that (almost) literally never made the playoffs and had them literally always making the playoffs.

One thing Chuck Noll said that I found interesting was that, in retrospect, he was disappointed that the Steelers didn't win their division in 1971. That is quite the high standard. It was like in 2 years Noll totally revamped the roster and created a team that could compete with anyone. Its impressive to me that only 6 players from the 1968 Steelers were still on the 1972 division winning team.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

To me, Lombardi, Noll, Brown, and Walsh are a cut above the rest. There's no real order to that, but those are my top four. Everybody else, I think is just a bit below them. I never thought of Halas in that class, but I highly respect what he did for pro football as an owner and coach. But I wouldn't pick him over the other four though.

Lombardi had the Packers in the NFL Championship after 2 years - maybe Noll thought about that when setting his own timeline.

[Sonny9]

To me, Lombardi, Noll, Brown, and Walsh are a cut above the rest. There's no real order to that, but those are my top four. Everybody else, I think is just a bit below them. I never thought of Halas in that class, but I highly respect what he did for pro football as an owner and coach. But I wouldn't pick him over the other four though.

Lombardi had the Packers in the NFL Championship after 2 years - maybe Noll thought about that when setting his own timeline.

Those are excellent choices but, Gibbs was better than Walsh imo.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

To me, Lombardi, Noll, Brown, and Walsh are a cut above the rest. There's no real order to that, but those are my top four. Everybody else, I think is just a bit below them. I never thought of Halas in that class, but I highly respect what he did for pro football as an owner and coach. But I wouldn't pick him over the other four though.

Lombardi had the Packers in the NFL Championship after 2 years - maybe Noll thought about that when setting his own timeline.

Those are excellent choices but, Gibbs was better than Walsh imo.

No question that Gibbs is right up there. If I'm in a league vs those other four and I have Gibbs as my head coach, I'm going to feel good about my chances.

[74_75_78_79_]

To me, Lombardi, Noll, Brown, and Walsh are a cut above the rest. There's no real order to that, but those are my top four. Everybody else, I think is just a bit below them. I never thought of Halas in that class, but I highly respect what he did for pro football as an owner and coach. But I wouldn't pick him over the other four though.

Lombardi had the Packers in the NFL Championship after 2 years - maybe Noll thought about that when setting his own timeline.

Those are excellent choices but, Gibbs was better than Walsh imo.

No question that Gibbs is right up there. If I'm in a league vs those other four and I have Gibbs as my head coach, I'm going to feel good about my chances.

This is, IMO, my Top Ten...

1) Lombardi
2, tie) Belichick & Brown (sometimes the former being 2a to the latter's 2b)
4) Halas
5) Noll (with phenomenal chance, at any moment, to crash on thru MtR; and maybe more than just a notch - or two)
6) Walsh
7a) Gibbs
7b) Parcells
9, tie) Landry & Shula

Yes, Gibbs is right up there with me as well. Someone placing him over Walsh is not, nor should it be considered, a big deal at all. Walsh does get 'credit' for a 4th Ring in '89, and yes Gibbs losing to Raiders 38-9 a 'black-eye', but techincally-speaking both he and Gibbs have equal World Championships to their credit at 3-apiece. And Joe, of course, did it with three different non-Canton-inducted QBs. The reason why I have Tuna not a full notch beneath Gibbs is because of his high level of head-to-head success against him; threeping him in '86 and then going 6-0 from '88 thru '90 (also w/out a Canton QB). If the wind blows just right, they can be tied at #7 instead.

I once placed Walsh slightly over Noll because of the '70s Steelers having quite more HOFers on the roster than the '80s Forty Niners. But it ends up coming down to the Emperor being such a culture-creator and blending all those big personalities (hey, Steelers had 'characters' too, not just the Raiders) into the obvious decade-long Historic Entity that they were. And in the de facto 'best-of-three' series between both HCs in the '80s, Noll wins 2-1 with each Steeler installment, mind you, being noticeably weaker than the opposition (8-8 vs 13-3 World Champ, 9-7 vs 15-1 World Champ, 6-6 non-scab vs 10-2 non-scab). And Noll did something twice that Walsh never did once - repeat!

One thing Chuck Noll said that I found interesting was that, in retrospect, he was disappointed that the Steelers didn't win their division in 1971. That is quite the high standard. It was like in 2 years Noll totally revamped the roster and created a team that could compete with anyone. Its impressive to me that only 6 players from the 1968 Steelers were still on the 1972 division winning team.

I'd say mostly it was, simply, setting the bar/standard real high. But also the fact that the AFC Central was quite weak those first two years of expansion. An 8-6 Bengals team that had to rally-like-mad to win that very division in '70; and Steelers were actually in the race for quite a bit of it. So winning it in 'Year 3' a reasonable heavy expectation. Especially when, end of day, the winner (9-5 Browns) was again the only above-500 team in the division.

[JohnTurney]

1) Lombardi
2, tie) Belichick & Brown (sometimes the former being 2a to the latter's 2b)
4) Halas
5) Noll (with phenomenal chance, at any moment, to crash on thru MtR; and maybe more than just a notch - or two)
6) Walsh
7a) Gibbs
7b) Parcells
9, tie) Landry & Shula

Pretty much the same for me. I might order a couple differently based on innovation stuff, things they did that was different
Walsh, IMO, was somone a cut above. Noll allowed Bud Carson to use Tampa-2 and also the use of 33 nickel a lot with Donnie
Shell--before Shell became a starter as a S . . . but he was more of an execution, motivation type coach.

Lombardi and Noll . . . I think Lombardi is credited with more in terms of offense running game

I think Landry gets a nump in my eyes for innovation...but still only difference is I'd probably
have to put Curly Lambeau in and Parcells out.


Andy Reid moving up, though . . . will be interesting if he wins one more...

[7DnBrnc53]

I would have Paul Brown at #1. He was so far ahead of his time. The pro game would be way different if he would have went back to Ohio State.

Belichick would be #2, although I am not happy with his cheating exploits (that people don't talk about anymore).

As for Lombardi, he was a great motivator, but he didn't build that team in Green Bay. If it wasn't for Jack Vainisi and the players that he brought in, I don't see Lombardi having the success that he had. Noll had more to do with building the 70's Steelers than Lombardi did with the 60's Packers.

[74_75_78_79_]

1) Lombardi
2, tie) Belichick & Brown (sometimes the former being 2a to the latter's 2b)
4) Halas
5) Noll (with phenomenal chance, at any moment, to crash on thru MtR; and maybe more than just a notch - or two)
6) Walsh
7a) Gibbs
7b) Parcells
9, tie) Landry & Shula

Pretty much the same for me. I might order a couple differently based on innovation stuff, things they did that was different
Walsh, IMO, was somone a cut above. Noll allowed Bud Carson to use Tampa-2 and also the use of 33 nickel a lot with Donnie
Shell--before Shell became a starter as a S . . . but he was more of an execution, motivation type coach.

Lombardi and Noll . . . I think Lombardi is credited with more in terms of offense running game

I think Landry gets a nump in my eyes for innovation...but still only difference is I'd probably
have to put Curly Lambeau in and Parcells out.


Andy Reid moving up, though . . . will be interesting if he wins one more...

Opinions can always change or go back-and-forth. A few things that I didn't think of before posting that top-10. I forgot about Steve Owen! In a previous post, I placed him ahead of Parcells in a list of two-time-champion HCs. I also placed Landry/Shula above Tuna on that list as well. Owen appeared in many League Championship Games!

Of course Curly is a great top-10 suggestion! But I, perhaps subconsciously - and maybe this isn't fair - do hold his success being restricted to WWII-and-prior against him. With me, either the 'modern' era begins in '46, '50, or somewhere in-between ('78 marking post-modern IMO). Curly's last title, of course, was in '44 and then it suddenly was all mediocre-at-best from there with GB/ChC/Wash. Only two World Championships as opposed to six, but at least Owen fielded championship-caliber teams in both '50 & '51. I guess after revisiting it all, Steve may very well be the "best Giants HC ever" over both Tuna and then Coughlin. Again with the numerous LCG-appearances along with giving Paul's Browns such serious fits (finishing at 10-2 and sweeping them '50 reg season; 'Umbrella' holding them to eight points in the tiebreaker) at the very beginning of that 'modern' decade!

And then HALAS in his very first year back from the War winning another title and fielding numerous championship-caliber squads well into the '60s! This is what catapulted him above Curly and deep into my top-10 in the first place!

Andy Reid? Why did I forget he's now, suddenly, a...two-time World Champ? Yes, I guess that raises further question with others as to why Tuna's in my top-10 yet alone ahead of Landry/Shula. I don't know. Parcells' career simply has always had the 'bite' to it despite lack of longevity after his time with the NYG (8 seasons; not too un-lengthy with me). It's simply apples/oranges when comparing Tuna to Landry/Shula and, now, Reid who simply had to win a second World Championship to add to that next level of legitimacy! Yes, never around to stay on the ship as it was now sinking thus trying to lift it back up, but those three runs with Pats/Jets/Cowboys in suddenly jacking each up to winning ways...it's tough. But Reid now at least well into the conversation. Sadly, I'll have to now place Andy over Cowher and I guess now even above...(yes, a bit tough and maybe sacrilege to suggest but likely and, sadly, true just the same)...Madden!