2023 FInalists, released 1PM EDT 12/27/22

[Brian wolf]

All I was doing was wondering aloud why Levy is in the HOF but not Reeves.
Reeves inherited HOF defensive talent, while Levy and with Marchibroda coaching the offense, built a HOF collection of players on offense ... Both lost the same amount of SBs. Does Levy's Canadian championship give him the edge, voter wise ? Levy built a much better team than Reeves but with all of his team talent, didnt meet bigger expectations ...

[JeffreyMiller]

In a perfect small hall, only ten or so coaches would be true HOFers ... Lombardi, Brown, Noll, Shula, Landry, Halas, etc ...But that is not the model we have. Our HOF is a watered down result of popularity contests.

[Brian wolf]

Great points Bryan, as usual but what could help at least Holmgren and Shanahan were helping the Niners get the most out of Montana and Young respectively, though Montana makes any coach look good, while Holmgren helped develop Young, Favre and somewhat, Hasselbeck. Had Holmgren beat Shanahan and Elway, he could have kept winning with Favre for years but the loss to Denver soured his relationship with Ron Wolf and made him hungry for a GM situation.

Shanahan finally got Elway over the hump and built a great running attack with different backs but like Parker with Layne, couldnt win with any other QB. He tried to win with Griese, Plummer and Cutler but they couldnt elevate or completely utilize the talent surrounding them, though Griese and Cutler could also, be magnets for opposing pass rushers. At least Plummer and Denver could play well against Brady and NE but he lost his gamble starting Cutler over Plummer IMO. He didnt do well in Washington but what coach does for owner Dan Snyder ?

Parker's early ownership of the Browns with Paul Brown was impressive but his racial dealings with players in both cities might have been his undoing, though at the time, he may have somewhat pandered to the fans but in Pittsburgh --which needed all the talent they could get-- he miscalculated.
Losing Buddy Dial and Jimmy Orr, hurt his teams as well ...

[Bryan]

All I was doing was wondering aloud why Levy is in the HOF but not Reeves.
Reeves inherited HOF defensive talent, while Levy and with Marchibroda coaching the offense, built a HOF collection of players on offense ... Both lost the same amount of SBs. Does Levy's Canadian championship give him the edge, voter wise ? Levy built a much better team than Reeves but with all of his team talent, didnt meet bigger expectations ...

Levy's team was the dominant team in the conference for several years. Reeves' teams seemed more like fortuitous recipients of facing off against some of the worst postseason coaches in NFL history (Schottenheimer, Glanville, Denny Green). Chuck Noll went up against Reeves' Broncos twice in the twilight of his coaching career. The first time he defeated the 13-3 Broncos in Denver with Mark Malone at QB. The second time, he was a Chuck Lanza snap away from beating the Broncos in Denver with Bubby Brister at QB and possibly the least offensive talent in NFL postseason history. Levy's teams were good, Reeves' teams were lucky. Any team with a pass rush could beat Denver in the postseason because Reeves' offense was so archaic, and if you had two weeks to prepare for their defense you could pretty much figure out what they were doing. Reeves' time in Atlanta and New York is not HOF level. If you think Reeves is a HOF coach, then you are basically enshrining him for winning in the regular season with John Elway.

[Brian wolf]

Thats the thing about more recent coaches, too many on the fence with pros and cons.
I probably wouldnt have voted for Levy, Reeves, Vermeil, Johnson or even Cowher but I can understand why they could be voted in ... Two championships usually gets a coach voted in but it hasnt helped out Seifert or Shanahan yet and Coughlin sparks debate as well. Marty Schott and Knox never had QBs but won consistently but their postseason records go against them. If Kraft went in as the next owner this year, the debates on the next elected HC will continue to be fierce ...

[Brian wolf]

Marty had some QBs but they werent with him long(Kosar, Montana, Brees) but he also had Gannon and didnt believe in him ... SMH

[Zero26]

2/3 pre 60s semi finalists made the finals not bad.

My favorites here were Otis Taylor and Jim Marshall but oh well at least they got a good look.

[74_75_78_79_]

Gosh, has anyone told Marv his place in the hall is up for reconsideration?

Maybe I am being too harsh on Levy, or holding my memory of coaching the Chicago Blitz against him (Vince Evans tho). I am comparing Levy to Bud Grant, and there really isn't that much difference between the excellence of Buffalo and Minnesota. So Levy does hold his own against other HOF coaches. But I'm the guy who also argued against Hank Stram and George Allen being in the HOF; too many coaches and non-players being enshrined, IMO.

As much respect I have for him, in the past I felt to question out loud George Allen's PFHOF induction, but was afraid that the sacrilege-police would come and get me. My reasoning for simply, very respectfully, asking this would be his never having won a playoff game outside of the 1972 campaign (guess you can 'count' that '67 play-in game vs Shula's 11-0-2 Colts). But the ultimate feather that George has in his cap is being in the same company as Vince in that EVERY SINGLE season that he head-coached was a WINNING season! All twelve of them (and his two USFL seasons were winning ones as well)! Not a few 500 seasons mixed in like Mike Tomlin, but ALL winners (still a remarkable accomplishment, just the same, for the Steeler HC). That said, and being an innovator, emphasis on special-teams, and being the DC for that '63 World Champ Bears team is what does it, so I'll still never ask.

Never really questioned Hank Stram. Perhaps too much is made of SBIV ("team of the future", or so his NFL Films mic-ed up sideline talk throughout the game seemed to convey), but an apparent 'sleeping bear' (the mighty NFL) was awaken after SBIII, they were "ready" the following year, yet Hank leads Chiefs to a lopsided victory over an otherwise superior Vikings squad anyway! Eleven out of fifteen winning seasons - '62, SBI, '68, SBIV & '71 amongst them. If only just a few one-SB-win HCs are able to make Canton as has been the case - some inductions questionable by some - then Stram certainly should have been one of them; and without question IMO.

Reeves coached three teams and had losing records with two of them.

In 23 seasons, he averaged about 8.5 wins and 7.5 losses a season.

Doesn't look like an HOF resume to me.

All I was doing was wondering aloud why Levy is in the HOF but not Reeves.
Reeves inherited HOF defensive talent, while Levy and with Marchibroda coaching the offense, built a HOF collection of players on offense ... Both lost the same amount of SBs. Does Levy's Canadian championship give him the edge, voter wise ? Levy built a much better team than Reeves but with all of his team talent, didnt meet bigger expectations ...

Levy's team was the dominant team in the conference for several years. Reeves' teams seemed more like fortuitous recipients of facing off against some of the worst postseason coaches in NFL history (Schottenheimer, Glanville, Denny Green). Chuck Noll went up against Reeves' Broncos twice in the twilight of his coaching career. The first time he defeated the 13-3 Broncos in Denver with Mark Malone at QB. The second time, he was a Chuck Lanza snap away from beating the Broncos in Denver with Bubby Brister at QB and possibly the least offensive talent in NFL postseason history. Levy's teams were good, Reeves' teams were lucky. Any team with a pass rush could beat Denver in the postseason because Reeves' offense was so archaic, and if you had two weeks to prepare for their defense you could pretty much figure out what they were doing. Reeves' time in Atlanta and New York is not HOF level. If you think Reeves is a HOF coach, then you are basically enshrining him for winning in the regular season with John Elway.

Yeah, simply reading these may very well make me take back what I said previously about he needing to get in if Grant and Levy are in. This should emphasize why both are in and Reeves isn't in. I opined a while back on another thread that Reeves and Vermeil are 'even', only to be immediately corrected by some. I agree with that correction. Vermeil (like Stram, Madden) is a very worthy HOF candidate of the one-title HCs (and, of course, Buck Shaw).

After this very recent reconsideration, Dan Reeves has a very good resume. If he does get into the PFHOF, no standing up on a soapbox. However, though I still see him as above HOVG-caliber, he IMO is much closer to that very fraternity than to Canton itself. Two road CC victories in both '86 & '98 is something worth mentioning. Burying a Favre-led 12-4 Packer team in '02 an eyebrow-raiser as well; call it his "last hurrah", if you may. And he did propel Chris Chandler to a Super Bowl. But, YES, he having Elway as his QB in the '80s clearly did help; and much more-so than Tarkenton and Kelly helped Grant and Levy respectively along with other great QBs throughout history helping their great HCs. And, albeit superficially, that very lopsided 1/31/99 defeat to that very former-QB (and former-OC) of his could add exclamation to that point.

Looking at his entire career as player, assistant (both at the School of Tom Landry), and HC, I see him as above-HOVG-caliber, but not by much. That respectfully ought to be my final conclusion.

[rewing84]

2/3 pre 60s semi finalists made the finals not bad.

My favorites here were Otis Taylor and Jim Marshall but oh well at least they got a good look.

if you had to guess what is keeping out otis taylor is it 1. AFL Bias 2. KC had a run oriented offense under stram 3. was blocked by duper morgan sharpe

[Bryan]

Never really questioned Hank Stram. Perhaps too much is made of SBIV ("team of the future", or so his NFL Films mic-ed up sideline talk throughout the game seemed to convey), but an apparent 'sleeping bear' (the mighty NFL) was awaken after SBIII, they were "ready" the following year, yet Hank leads Chiefs to a lopsided victory over an otherwise superior Vikings squad anyway! Eleven out of fifteen winning seasons - '62, SBI, '68, SBIV & '71 amongst them. If only just a few one-SB-win HCs are able to make Canton as has been the case - some inductions questionable by some - then Stram certainly should have been one of them; and without question IMO.

The Texans and Chiefs had an abundance of talent and were very inconsistent. I don't really buy the 11 out of 15 winning seasons...many of those seasons were underachieving 7-5-2/8-6 seasons in which big things were expected of them. The early Chiefs were up and down...how they went from 11-3 champs in 1962 to a losing record in 1963 is astounding...this is still the early AFL where you don't really have established organizations. The later Chiefs would always lose to the Raiders. They were fortunate to win the 69 AFL title game...a lot of breaks went their way and Madden didn't have the gravitas to pull an injured Lamonica which pretty much cost him any chance of winning. The 72 and even the 73 Chiefs were still viewed as title contenders, yet struggled to finish above .500. His time in New Orleans was a disaster.

To me, the most telling stat is that Stram coached 17 years, had a stockpile of talented HOF players with KC, and won only 3 division titles. They were kind of second banana to the Chargers in the West in the beginning, then the were second banana to the Raiders in the West in the latter part of the decade. I don't see any sustained excellence.