How do you count All-Pros?

[TanksAndSpartans]

In a discussion about Jan Stenerud, it came up that he was a 1 time All-Pro. Check the upper right in PFR:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ejan01.htm

But, when you scroll down and look at his postseason honors, there are organizations that named him All-Pro in many seasons. PFJ has him as a 6-time All-Pro:

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... -post.html

But I can't even tell which 6 seasons PFJ is counting looking at the long list in PFR.

So, should it be 6 or 1 or something in between? Thanks for any help.

[Reaser]

If you can find it via search you should be able to find the many discussions we've had on All-Pros. Though, I believe most were on the old forum.

Short version, PFR only counts the AP for it's "upper right", which is an incomplete way to do it but their choice.

PFJ, presumably (since Turney and I were the two posting most about "AP Only" mistaken thinking on the old forum, in agreement) and in a more correct presentation: 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1984 the six years he was 1st-team "All" by a major selector. Easy to see.

Not really a matter of "should it be" this or that, it's more what it is. The information is there.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it.

I wouldn't have known how to distinguish major. '74 he just has Newspaper Ent. Assoc. for example.

[Reaser]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it.

I wouldn't have known how to distinguish major. '74 he just has Newspaper Ent. Assoc. for example.

NEA was voted on by players. They teamed up with CBS in the late 60s to have an awards show, similar to how the NFL and AP have the "NFL Honors" show now.

Edit: Tried to look up past threads on this for you, the search function here ... well, everyone knows how well that works. Tried google and John actually wrote about it. Which is basically exactly what you would have read in a forum post on the old forums. So give this a look, explains it well.

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... wards.html

[Ken Crippen]

Personally, I would list ALL all-pro honors and by which organization.

[rhickok1109]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it.

I wouldn't have known how to distinguish major. '74 he just has Newspaper Ent. Assoc. for example.

NEA was voted on by players. They teamed up with CBS in the late 60s to have an awards show, similar to how the NFL and AP have the "NFL Honors" show now.

Edit: Tried to look up past threads on this for you, the search function here ... well, everyone knows how well that works. Tried google and John actually wrote about it. Which is basically exactly what you would have read in a forum post on the old forums. So give this a look, explains it well.

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... wards.html

I've long had my doubts about Murray Olderman's claim that players voted on the NEA all-Pro team.

As a sports editor in Ohio 1961-63, I asked a very large number of the Cleveland Browns about it and none of them could remember ever receiving any kind of ballot from NEA.

[RichardBak]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it.

I wouldn't have known how to distinguish major. '74 he just has Newspaper Ent. Assoc. for example.

NEA was voted on by players. They teamed up with CBS in the late 60s to have an awards show, similar to how the NFL and AP have the "NFL Honors" show now.

Edit: Tried to look up past threads on this for you, the search function here ... well, everyone knows how well that works. Tried google and John actually wrote about it. Which is basically exactly what you would have read in a forum post on the old forums. So give this a look, explains it well.

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... wards.html

I've long had my doubts about Murray Olderman's claim that players voted on the NEA all-Pro team.

As a sports editor in Ohio 1961-63, I asked a very large number of the Cleveland Browns about it and none of them could remember ever receiving any kind of ballot from NEA.

You have to wonder if some club employee didn't fill them out and send them back. Kind of like the batboy scrawling some player's signature on a box of "autographed" baseballs or some flunky in the PR dept. voting in the weekly coaches college poll.

[rhickok1109]

You have to wonder if some club employee didn't fill them out and send them back. Kind of like the batboy scrawling some player's signature on a box of "autographed" baseballs or some flunky in the PR dept. voting in the weekly coaches college poll.

A childhood friend of mine, Johnny Gordon, who designed the original Packer logo, autographed countless footballs when he was an assistant equipment manager with the Packers while attending college. John told me that Hornung was the only player who always signed; Bart Starr did only occasionally and Lombardi never did. An artist, John was pretty well skilled at forging autographs. He got quite a bit of publicity a few years ago when somebody was trying to sell a Lombardi-autographed football for something like $10,000 and John intervened to say that it was actually one of his forgeries.

[Ronfitch]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it.

I wouldn't have known how to distinguish major. '74 he just has Newspaper Ent. Assoc. for example.

NEA was voted on by players. They teamed up with CBS in the late 60s to have an awards show, similar to how the NFL and AP have the "NFL Honors" show now.

Edit: Tried to look up past threads on this for you, the search function here ... well, everyone knows how well that works. Tried google and John actually wrote about it. Which is basically exactly what you would have read in a forum post on the old forums. So give this a look, explains it well.

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... wards.html

Again, we need a "Like" button on this forum.

Thanks, Matt and John.

[JohnTurney]

In a discussion about Jan Stenerud, it came up that he was a 1 time All-Pro. Check the upper right in PFR:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ejan01.htm

But, when you scroll down and look at his postseason honors, there are organizations that named him All-Pro in many seasons. PFJ has him as a 6-time All-Pro:

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... -post.html

But I can't even tell which 6 seasons PFJ is counting looking at the long list in PFR.

So, should it be 6 or 1 or something in between? Thanks for any help.

I totally missed this thread. Was searching for Murray Olderman's name and this came up. Yes, you have valid point, I should have made
a note of what All-Pro teams I used---will make note of that in future.

The original source is Total Football: The Official Encyclopedia of the NFL. or Total Football II, they are the same except for updates.
Pro Football Reference uses this same source . . . but they have the complete list of All-Pros below player profiles, the "long list" as you pointed out.
On the stat chart they use AP-only and a lot of people do . . . which is obviously their right.

As to what a "Major team" is my opinion is that it is included in the Official NFL Record and Fact Book at some point. There are oddities in that
, however. In 1970 and 1971 the "Official" All-pro team was PFWA and it was the only one included in the Record Book those two years, they did not
include the Associated Press, for example. But I think most would still consider it major, even though it was not in the book.

Also, it took a couple of years before the PFWA team actually show up in the Record Book.

For me, Total Football makes the most sense. Also, The Pro Football Hall of Fame uses that as its source. So, when they write
a profile they use the ones in that book.

There could be a fair debate about the NY Daily News and how major it was. It was a vote of writers but was a bit NYC-heavy
but it's certainly a valuable team. I usually don't include it when calling someone a "three-time All-Pro" because it was never in the Record Book
and it is hard to explain to people not in the research community.

However, when doing a profile there are exceptions...I may say "such and such was an All-Pro in 1964 by the New York Daily News"--
if that was his only selection that year. Same with a Dr. Z All-Pro it's something to put in a profile to show that someone noticed a player's season.

As for Stenerud, kickers and punters are problematic for the AP-only thing because they were the last or among the last to add the positions.
By 1973 the PFWA and NEA had kickers and punters . . . the AP still didn't. So the only All-Pro teams Ray Guy made were non-AP.

Now that I do some stuff for Clark Judge--he leans toward AP-only and he has editorial control, I have to specify Sporting News or NEA
or even PFWA most of the time - he thinks AP is the "recognized" team. Just glad he doesn't say "official".

The former is becoming more and more accurate the latter would not be accurate. I think AP-only is winning, though the PFWA is trying.
Sporting News, though it polls executives, is losing traction, IMO, though I could be wrong about that. The zeitgeist favors the AP, IMO.

INS was a news service that didn't have a lot of years picking teams but when you dig through old papers, INS was a smaller news service
that carried stories over the wires, but nothing compared to the AP or even UPI ... or even the NEA which was small in comparison.

I don't know if the PFRA has an editorial rule for profiles for the HOVG or not, when I do profiles I use Total Football teams, sans NYDN.

And what I consider "consensus" is being first-team on the majority of the teams in any given year. In the 1970s, there were three
AP, PFWA, and NEA.

In the 1960s - the AP, UPI, NEA and later the PFWA.

PFW and SN (pre-1993) warrant their own discussion since they were chosen by staff in most cases. They are included in Total Football
though but in my personal opinion carry a bit less gravitas that the wire service teams.

So, sorry for the long response...it's an oddly trick subject (the AFL and NFL stuff is another thread-worthy subject) and my opinion
is that AP-only emerged not because it was the historically right way to go but that it was easier for search engines to process -
less confusing . . . in PFR's early days they did, in fact, list AP-only. Then they got ahold of Total Football and did the "long list".

And that did befuddle some of the AP-only people . . . cannot recall when that happened, it's been a long time...but anyway.