1950's Detroit Lions

[Saban1]

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Lions owned the Browns during the Graham years, and beyond, despite the blowout loss.
I also have no problem saying the 90's Cowboys owned the Packers, despite a 45-17 loss in 1997.
In both cases, the win was an aberration in the larger picture. Not that Cleveland's win was a fluke or anything. It was a dominant win, one of the best by Graham's Browns. But it was the only time they defeated the Lions until 1964. This was in an era when the Browns beat everyone...except the Lions. They had played 6 times before, I believe. Twice in regular season, twice in postseason and even twice in preseason. Cleveland was 0-6. There were extenuating circumstances, as Savannah pointed out, such as the meaningless regular season finale. But from what I've read, there weren't too many meaningless games to Paul Brown. Bottom line, Graham was 1-4 in official games against Detroit. I'd say it's fair to say they got owned.... but Graham sure ended the rivalry on a high note.

Dallas really did own Green Bay from 1993 through 1996 beating the Pack 7 straight times including playoff games, and some of the games were not even close. From 1993 until 1995, Dallas was a better team than Green Bay, but Green Bay won the Super Bowl in 1996, but lost to the Cowboys for the 7th straight time (don't know about their games prior to 1993) that year. In 1997, Green Bay went to the Super Bowl again, and this time they beat the Cowboys 45 to 17, but Dallas was 6 and 10 that year.

With Cleveland/Detroit 1952 through 1954, Cleveland lost twice to Detroit in 1952, but Detroit was the better team that year, especially in the championship when Cleveland was a crippled team. Cleveland did some more rebuilding in 1953 (including a 15 player trade with Baltimore), and bounced back to almost go undefeated. Detroit won the championship 17 to 16. Cleveland lost another to the Lions in a season final game in 1954 that was essentially meaningless due to the fact that both teams had their conference championships wrapped up, and were to play for the NFL Championship the following week. In that game, Cleveland won 56 to 10. Cleveland won the NFL Championship again in 1955, beating the Rams in the title game 38 to 14. Detroit finished in last place in 1955, and did not play Cleveland that year.

Cleveland and Detroit did not play again until 1957. Detroit had a new head coach (George Wilson) and a new quarterback named Tobin Rote that year, and Cleveland's QB's that year were Tommy O'Connell (picked up as a free agent in 1956) and rookie Milt Plum. Cleveland lost to Detroit 20 to 7 ten days after Thanksgiving (Layne suffered a broken leg in that game and Rote got all the playing time at QB after that) and lost to the Lions in the championship, 59 to 14. Cleveland also lost a regular season game to Detroit in 1958, 30 to 10, even though Cleveland was 9 and 3 that year and Detroit was 4-7-1.

[SixtiesFan]

The 1952 Browns were the weakest of Graham's teams, but the 1953 Browns were arguably the best. I didn't realize before that they were less than 30 minutes from having an undefeated season. They scored first in the 3rd quarter of week 14 to get a 20-14 lead. Philly scored 28 straight points. (Can you imagine the hype they would have dealt with today?) I think George Ratterman started that game.
Yet the next week, Otto had a sort of rash on his hands, and Bobby Layne led a classic two minute drill (albeit in 4 minutes) to beat Cleveland.

Otto had his best season in 1953, and his worst game in the championship that year.

Buddy Parker said that he thought that Detroit had their best team in 1954, and the Lions got slaughtered in the title game.

Football can be a funny game.

Fred Dryer and other 70's Rams said the 1979 team was the weakest of the seven Los Angeles Ram teams from 1973-79 who won the NFC West, but were the only team of the seven to make the Super Bowl.

[Saban1]

The 1952 Browns were the weakest of Graham's teams, but the 1953 Browns were arguably the best. I didn't realize before that they were less than 30 minutes from having an undefeated season. They scored first in the 3rd quarter of week 14 to get a 20-14 lead. Philly scored 28 straight points. (Can you imagine the hype they would have dealt with today?) I think George Ratterman started that game.
Yet the next week, Otto had a sort of rash on his hands, and Bobby Layne led a classic two minute drill (albeit in 4 minutes) to beat Cleveland.

Otto had his best season in 1953, and his worst game in the championship that year.

Buddy Parker said that he thought that Detroit had their best team in 1954, and the Lions got slaughtered in the title game.

Football can be a funny game.

Fred Dryer and other 70's Rams said the 1979 team was the weakest of the seven Los Angeles Ram teams from 1973-79 who won the NFC West, but were the only team of the seven to make the Super Bowl.

Vince Ferragamo became the starting quarterback for the Rams in 1979. I don't think that Ferragamo is considered one of the great quarterbacks, but I think that he was more dangerous to the Dallas Cowboys defense than Pat Haden was. Ferragamo had a more powerful arm. Just my opinion.

[Saban1]

I have mentioned before that the 1952 Cleveland Browns were the weakest of the Graham era, but did not go into detail as to why. So, here is some of what happened to the Cleveland Browns in 1952, IMHO.

Cleveland lost a championship game to the Rams in 1951, so for the first time since their beginning, the Browns finished a season not being league champions. Maybe the fact that their championship run had ended led to a different attitude in 1952.

Otto Graham, for one, said that his attitude reeked in 1952. Otto reportedly was starting to think about retirement that year, and was getting tired of the training camps and separations from his family.

Lost to retirement that year were starters T Lou Rymkus (one of the best in football), LB Tony Adamle, S Cliff Lewis, LB Alex Agase, and messenger guard Bob Gaudio, who alternated at right guard with Lin Houston. Former starter T Chubby Grigg was traded.

Injuries to E Dante Lavelli and HB Ken Carpenter hurt as they were lost for a number of games.

I think that it was an example of if a team starts to let down for whatever reasons, there is always someone ready and willing to take over their place at the top, and in this case, it was the Detroit Lions.

Paul Brown recognized this, and at one point that year, said that the Detroit Lions were now the best team in football. I think that this was sincere although it may have been said partially to psyche up his team. Brown could see that the Lions were coming.

Brown also said that there was an attitude problem with his team that he had to root out. Maybe part of this rooting out process was a 15 player trade made with Baltimore in 1953 (10 Browns for 5 Colts).

Mentioned before was injuries to key players prior to the championship including 2 of Cleveland's top 3 receivers (Mac Speedie and Dub Jones). Lou Groza also had injured ribs, which may be why he missed 3 field goals in the title game.

Cleveland really kind of beat themselves in the championship making mistakes that helped make Detroit's job easier with key fumbles and other things, and might have won the game despite the injuries if not for said mistakes. Not to take anything away from the Detroit Lions, who played tough, especially on defense, and made a great stand late in the game with Cleveland on their 5 yard line and the score 14 to 7 in their favor.

Anyway, Cleveland lost twice not only to Detroit, but also to the Giants, who finished tied for 2nd place in the east that year. It was the first time that Cleveland ever lost twice to 2 different teams in the same year. Actually, it was the first time that the Cleveland Browns ever lost more than 2 games in any season.

Like I said, when a top team starts to slip, there is always someone ready and willing to take over at the top.

[Saban1]

Here is something to think about. How many NFL Championships would the Detroit Lions have won during the 1950's if the Cleveland Browns were not around and vice verse?

I think that both teams likely would have won more. A good chance that Detroit gets the 1954 title without Cleveland. That would have given the Lions a 3-peat and 4 championships during the decade and 4 titles in 6 years (like Pittsburgh). So, where would those 1950's Lions be ranked then with the other great championship runs? (dynasties?)

I guess that you could say the same about some of the others. Pittsburgh without Oakland, 49ers without the Giants, New England without the Giants, maybe Cleveland without the Giants in the late 1950's (those Giants sure liked to play spoiler).

Of course, that was before the Super Bowl and before many of the baby boomers started watching football. Anyway, I think that he 1950's Detroit Lions were a great team, even if they did "only" win three NFL Championships.

Yes, the 1950's Lions and Browns did take away from each other. That is the trouble with 2 great teams (dynasties?) being great at the same time. How great would those Detroit teams be considered to be if there were no Cleveland Browns and the Lions also won the NFL Championship in 1954? They would have to be considered one of the great teams of all time with their 3-peat and 4 championships overall. They might have gone on to win even more if coach Buddy Parker had stayed around for a few more years.

[Saban1]

1957 was the end of Detroit's championship run and in 1958, Detroit fell to a 4-7-1 record. As bad as they were, the Lions still managed to louse up Cleveland's season, beating the Browns 30 to 10 and then losing to the Giants in a controversial manner to keep the New York team in the running for the Eastern Conference title.

The Detroit Lions really did not like the Cleveland Browns, and felt that they were the better team throughout the decade. They hated hearing the Browns get any praise, and the Cleveland Browns got a lot of it when they won championships in 1954 and 1955, winning big each year in the title game and beating Detroit 56 to 10 in the 1954 title contest. Of course, the Detroit Lions got a measure of revenge in 1957, defeating Cleveland 59 to 14 for the NFL Championship.

Cleveland and Detroit had each won 3 NFL Championships during the 1950's, and the last thing that the Detroit players and coaches wanted to see was the hated Browns in another championship game. So, in the second from last game in the 1958 season, Detroit had to play the New York Giants, and a win for Detroit would eliminate the Giants in the NFL east and put the Cleveland Browns into the NFL Championship game with Baltimore.

In that game, Detroit had the lead 17 to 12 late in the game and were forced to punt with 4th and long. Instead of punting, Yale Lary took the ball and ran to the side and out of bounds, far short of the first down. It didn't look like Lary was even trying to make the first down.

The Giants, with 4th down and very long completed a long pass to end Bob Schnelker for a first down. It looked like Schnelker was not covered on the play. The Giants went on to score a TD and took the lead, 19 to 17.

Detroit managed to drive down the field near the end of the game and attempted a not very long field goal to win the game. The kick was blocked. Actually, it looked like the kick was low and into the Giants line, and would not have gone over the crossbar even if it wasn't touched (BTW, this game is on You Tube starting with the run in punt formation by Lary).

So, instead of being eliminated from contention, the New York Giants went on to win the Eastern Conference title and to play in "the greatest game ever played" against the Baltimore Colts.

So, the Detroit Lions did not win any championships in 1958, but lousing up the Cleveland Browns' season was probably the next best thing for them.

[oldecapecod11]

Saban » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:33 pm
"...1957 was the end of Detroit's championship run and in 1958, Detroit fell to a 4-7-1 record. As bad as they were, the Lions still managed to louse up Cleveland's season, beating the Browns 30 to 10 and then losing to the Giants in a controversial manner to keep the New York team in the running for the Eastern Conference title.
The Detroit Lions really did not like the Cleveland Browns, and felt that they were the better team throughout the decade. They hated hearing the Browns get any praise, and the Cleveland Browns got a lot of it when they won championships in 1954 and 1955, winning big each year in the title game and beating Detroit 56 to 10 in the 1954 title contest. Of course, the Detroit Lions got a measure of revenge in 1957, defeating Cleveland 59 to 14 for the NFL Championship.
Cleveland and Detroit had each won 3 NFL Championships during the 1950's, and the last thing that the Detroit players and coaches wanted to see was the hated Browns in another championship game. So, in the second from last game in the 1958 season, Detroit had to play the New York Giants, and a win for Detroit would eliminate the Giants in the NFL east and put the Cleveland Browns into the NFL Championship game with Baltimore.
In that game, Detroit had the lead 17 to 12 late in the game and were forced to punt with 4th and long. Instead of punting, Yale Lary took the ball and ran to the side and out of bounds, far short of the first down. It didn't look like Lary was even trying to make the first down.
The Giants, with 4th down and very long completed a long pass to end Bob Schnelker for a first down. It looked like Schnelker was not covered on the play. The Giants went on to score a TD and took the lead, 19 to 17.
Detroit managed to drive down the field near the end of the game and attempted a not very long field goal to win the game. The kick was blocked. Actually, it looked like the kick was low and into the Giants line, and would not have gone over the crossbar even if it wasn't touched (BTW, this game is on You Tube starting with the run in punt formation by Lary).
So, instead of being eliminated from contention, the New York Giants went on to win the Eastern Conference title and to play in "the greatest game ever played" against the Baltimore Colts..."

It seems as though this passage might make a decent chapter in the book "The Fix Is In" - discussed, in part, in another thread here?

[Saban1]

Saban » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:33 pm
"...1957 was the end of Detroit's championship run and in 1958, Detroit fell to a 4-7-1 record. As bad as they were, the Lions still managed to louse up Cleveland's season, beating the Browns 30 to 10 and then losing to the Giants in a controversial manner to keep the New York team in the running for the Eastern Conference title.
The Detroit Lions really did not like the Cleveland Browns, and felt that they were the better team throughout the decade. They hated hearing the Browns get any praise, and the Cleveland Browns got a lot of it when they won championships in 1954 and 1955, winning big each year in the title game and beating Detroit 56 to 10 in the 1954 title contest. Of course, the Detroit Lions got a measure of revenge in 1957, defeating Cleveland 59 to 14 for the NFL Championship.
Cleveland and Detroit had each won 3 NFL Championships during the 1950's, and the last thing that the Detroit players and coaches wanted to see was the hated Browns in another championship game. So, in the second from last game in the 1958 season, Detroit had to play the New York Giants, and a win for Detroit would eliminate the Giants in the NFL east and put the Cleveland Browns into the NFL Championship game with Baltimore.
In that game, Detroit had the lead 17 to 12 late in the game and were forced to punt with 4th and long. Instead of punting, Yale Lary took the ball and ran to the side and out of bounds, far short of the first down. It didn't look like Lary was even trying to make the first down.
The Giants, with 4th down and very long completed a long pass to end Bob Schnelker for a first down. It looked like Schnelker was not covered on the play. The Giants went on to score a TD and took the lead, 19 to 17.
Detroit managed to drive down the field near the end of the game and attempted a not very long field goal to win the game. The kick was blocked. Actually, it looked like the kick was low and into the Giants line, and would not have gone over the crossbar even if it wasn't touched (BTW, this game is on You Tube starting with the run in punt formation by Lary).
So, instead of being eliminated from contention, the New York Giants went on to win the Eastern Conference title and to play in "the greatest game ever played" against the Baltimore Colts..."

It seems as though this passage might make a decent chapter in the book "The Fix Is In" - discussed, in part, in another thread here?

It does seem like it, but I doubt that there were any gamblers or money involved. I think that it was just a matter of some players that weren't really sure whether they wanted to win that game or not. Not a lot of incentive for Detroit that day.

[oldecapecod11]

Saban » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:42 am
"It does seem like it, but I doubt that there were any gamblers or money involved. I think that it was just a matter of some players that weren't really sure whether they wanted to win that game or not. Not a lot of incentive for Detroit that day."

I doubt it also.
In fact, I think the bulk of what was quoted here regarding that book was insinuated hogwash. The only credibility, IMO, is the author's successful selection of a catchy phrase that always seems to generate interest.
I also think the NFL and most of the players of that era were above such acts. The league of today might stoop to anything to sell, sell, sell and we have certainly seen more than a fair share of criminal activity among the players.
Now... if someone suggested Bobby Layne had a quart of Jack Daniels in the water bucket...
By the way, didn't those same Detroit Lions also lose to the College All-Stars?

[Saban1]

Saban » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:42 am
"It does seem like it, but I doubt that there were any gamblers or money involved. I think that it was just a matter of some players that weren't really sure whether they wanted to win that game or not. Not a lot of incentive for Detroit that day."

I doubt it also.
In fact, I think the bulk of what was quoted here regarding that book was insinuated hogwash. The only credibility, IMO, is the author's successful selection of a catchy phrase that always seems to generate interest.
I also think the NFL and most of the players of that era were above such acts. The league of today might stoop to anything to sell, sell, sell and we have certainly seen more than a fair share of criminal activity among the players.
Now... if someone suggested Bobby Layne had a quart of Jack Daniels in the water bucket...
By the way, didn't those same Detroit Lions also lose to the College All-Stars?

I think you are right.

BTW, the coach of that college All-Star team that beat Detroit was Otto Graham. Maybe he remembered what he did in the 1954 championship and passed it on to his players.

As far as Bobby Layne having a quart of Jack Daniels in the water bucket; that I might believe. Layne might have had another quart in the locker room for a few snorts at halftime to get him in the mood for one of his second half rallies.