Better HC, Cowher or Holmgren?

[74_75_78_79_]

To me, if Dungy made the Hall I think not only should both these guys have made it, but both get in before him (each having a better post-season win %age don't hurt). Either that or maybe all three come up just short in the end. All three won one Lombardi apiece with Dungy's being his only SB-appearance while Cowher appeared in two total, Holmgren in three. However, I'll have to give nod to Cowher. He never had a Brett Favre (or even a Hasselbeck) for a QB until Big Ben arrived and practically every year during his time in the 'Burgh was there a musical-chairs rotation of key players and assistants alike. That said, it's just my unbiased opinion and still makes for quite the debate between these one-time SB-winners. Thoughts?

[sheajets]

Cowher never struck me as a great X's and O's guy...but Pittsburgh is such a class/model organization that he always seemed to have good assistants around him like Arians, Whisenhunt, LeBeau, Mularkey, Gilbride etc. It's almost difficult to fail when you have that kind of football architecture around you. But Cowher was a tremendous coach who always kept the room and was competent in all aspects of coaching.

I guess I'd give Holmgren a slight edge. It's almost a coin flip.

[74_75_78_79_]

Looks like the list is out. I saw it on another board: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... s-revealed

COACHES (8 FINALISTS) - Coaches who last coached more than five seasons ago

Don Coryell - 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers

Bill Cowher - 1992-2006 Pittsburgh Steelers

Tom Flores - 1979-1987 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-94 Seattle Seahawks

Mike Holmgren - 1992-98 Green Bay Packers, 1999-2008 Seattle Seahawks

Jimmy Johnson - 1989-1993 Dallas Cowboys, 1996-99 Miami Dolphins

Buddy Parker - 1949 Chicago Cardinals, 1951-56 Detroit Lions, 1957-1964 Pittsburgh Steelers

Dan Reeves - 1981-1992 Denver Broncos, 1993-96 New York Giants, 1997-2003 Atlanta Falcons

Dick Vermeil - 1976-1982 Philadelphia Eagles, 1997-99 St. Louis Rams, 2001-05 Kansas City Chiefs

Since nobody is talking about the Coaches, I thought I would look at them:

For the Coaches, I think it comes down to four people - Buddy Parker, Dan Reeves, Don Coryell, and Mike Holmgren. I would be very surprised if any of the other Coaches were chosen.

Parker led the Lions to two NFL titles in 52 and 53, lost in 54, but walked out on the team in training camp in 1957 and the team won the NFL title without him. Was it a case of the team rallied to show the world they didn't need Parker, or was it the change from Parker to George Wilson that was needed to put them over the top once again? Sometimes, a team has all the talent, but it takes a coaching change (2002 Bucs) to take the team to the next level. To his credit, Parker went to Pittsburgh and became the first Steelers coach to leave with a winning record, and they almost won the 1962 Eastern Division.

Reeves has the long career going for him, the playing career in Dallas, the HB option TD pass in the Ice Bowl, being a longtime assistant under Landry, and of course the four Super Bowl losses. On the other hand, he was twice AP Coach of the Year, and was an assistant on three Cowboy teams who went to the Super Bowl, meaning he was involved in eight Super Bowl games as a coach or player or assistant.

Coryell is an innovator, first as a coach at San Diego State for over 10 years , then he turned around a Cardinals franchise that hadn't seen the postseason in over 25 years, went to San Diego and turned around a Chargers franchise that hadn't seen the postseason in 15 years. Dan Fouts would not be a Hall of Famer without Don Coryell showing up in San Diego, nor would Charlie Joiner, and Coryell in turn influenced Joe Gibbs, who was the OC in San Diego in the late 70's, which led to the Redskins of the early 80's.

Holmgren also touched a lot of important NFL lives - from being the Quarterbacks coach at BYU to the 49ers QB's Coach/OC to the Packers job, he worked with Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Joe Montana and helped get Brett Favre's career off the ground. More than that, he (along with Favre and Reggie White) restored the Packers to being a marquee franchise once again, which they hadn't been since Lombardi retired, The system Holmgren set up in Green Bay remains to this day in that the Packers have seemingly not lost a step since he left, and it's almost like he hasn't left Green Bay, the organization has been seemingly running on auto-pilot and continue to remain competitive just about every year. Then, of course, there is his coaching tree, which includes Jon Gruden, Andy Reid, Mike Tomlin and John Harbaugh to name a few.

At the end of the day, Parker and Reeves did a lot to contribute to the game, but the two most overly qualified guys on the list are Coryell and Holmgren.

Apologies to those who may be annoyed at reviving an old thread that I started three years back, but in lieu to the current thread about Centennial HOF coach candidates (above post being a quote from that thread), I think it's not a bad idea to revive; and just may generate better buzz than previously.

Though I, as you see in my original post on this thread, have my own opinion on who's better between the two (if however quite slightly), this is a debate that IMHO is worth reviving. Rupert, your cases on Parker, Reeves, Coryell, and Holmgren getting in are very well-written and very solid/agreeable. That said, I do feel that both Bill Cowher and Mike Holmgren are, more-or-less, joined at-the-hip as far as historic credibility is concerned. If one does get in, the other more-or-less should get in as well (as sheajets says, "It's almost a coin flip"). The two, to me, are a lesser version of Landry-vs-Shula. What each twosome have in common, of course, is that each HC'd each other in a Super Bowl (VI, XL) as well as that very SB result, IMO, shouldn't really be a reason to automatically give the winner the nod (it was only one game), but a smorgasbord of other reasons to debate on instead...

[BD Sullivan]

It was mentioned that Holmgren's legacy might have been damaged by his run as the Browns' president--not so much because they stunk during that entire time, but more because he mailed it in for close to three years and seemingly spent more time in Seattle than Cleveland. There was one story about Haslam flying up from Tennessee for a morning meeting and Holmgren hadn't bothered to show up from his Cleveland home about 30 minutes away.