Jack McBride

[JameisLoseston]

Wanted to start a discussion on this 20s player I found. He seems like the quintessential "very good" player to me. He did literally everything on the field well. His passing stats were very good, if a bit light on sample size; over 50% completion and a 63 career rating. Although he was the guy the Giants kicked to the curb for Friedman, he went on to success afterwards, and I'd say he was only perhaps a bit worse than the Packers' Red Dunn (another HOVG candidate). Unlike Dunn, however, McBride was also a very good runner, with 4.2 ypc, 2000 yards and 26 career rushing TDs, on par with a few HOFers of the era. He was also an above average kicker and punter for the early part of his career, and played good defense for almost all of his 10-year career, long for the era. Why has no one ever talked about him? He's the type of player that should represent the HOVG in my opinion, along with true superstars who had bad injury luck.

His player card: http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/playe ... D/00680013

On that note, go ahead and suggest other candidates from the early days of the NFL you'd like to see in the HOVG! *Latone intensifies*

[TanksAndSpartans]

I was part of a good discussion with Hap Moran's son and another Giants historian recently - McBride and Hinky Haines were at the center of it.

Edited to add, I nominated Red Dunn for HOVG one year, but he didn't make it onto the ballot. It was just the one time though, he fell back on my list as I started watching more 50s highlights and integrating some of those guys into my choices.

[JameisLoseston]

Fun fact I forgot to cover last night - the Giants actually took McBride back after Friedman got banged up, and he rewarded them with a couple more decent years. He was on Brooklyn when Friedman was on the Giants, then the Giants sent Friedman to Brooklyn and took McBride back; did they just trade Friedman to Brooklyn for McBride straight up?

Edit: Red Dunn - he feels like a guy who should definitely be in the HOVG if Herber is HOF. Of course, you could counter that by arguing Herber shouldn't be HOF. But other than career length, I look at them both and I don't think Herber was better than him.

Cmp%: Dunn 44.4, Herber 40.8
PY per season: Dunn 580, Herber 640
TD/INT per season: Dunn 6.0/7.9, Herber 6.2/8.4
However, Att per season: Dunn 77.5, Herber 93.5
Y/A: Dunn 7.49, Herber 6.85
Rate: Dunn 56.9, Herber 49.5

Rushing: Dunn 184-595-5 (3.2), Herber 291-262-3 (0.9). Does Dunn's not count sacks against him?

Both caught the ball a bit too for whatever reason, Dunn more so. Both also punted, with Herber quite a bit better at it, and both played good defense with Dunn a bit more consistent; Dunn also kicked PATs and returned punts.

Again, you could always take the angle that Herber is overrated, or that they were both just system QBs, with Isbell and even Irv Comp also looking good after them. But if you don't, this definitely highlights Dunn as a player worth a strong second look. 2nd best passer of the 20s most likely; McBride is probably the second best overall QB due to his superior dual threat.

[Reaser]

Why has no one ever talked about him? He's the type of player that should represent the HOVG in my opinion, along with true superstars who had bad injury luck.

We've talked about him, quite a bit.

Including, on the old forums, when we went through the 20's to pick MVP's and he was 1927's, and a few years later Moran posted a newspaper clip from early 1928 I believe, that said he had been named "Most Valuable Player".

[JameisLoseston]

Why has no one ever talked about him? He's the type of player that should represent the HOVG in my opinion, along with true superstars who had bad injury luck.

We've talked about him, quite a bit.

Including, on the old forums, when we went through the 20's to pick MVP's and he was 1927's, and a few years later Moran posted a newspaper clip from early 1928 I believe, that said he had been named "Most Valuable Player".

Interesting, then, that Mara wanted to cast him off for Friedman so bad that he was willing to raid Detroit's roster to do it. I guess it's like dumping Tebow for Peyton Manning, though, if Tebow were a lot better.

Fun fact about Friedman in 28: according to published stats, he led the league in passing yards, passing TDs, rushing yards, and rushing TDs. Obviously the only player to ever do this.

[Bob Gill]

Interesting, then, that Mara wanted to cast him off for Friedman so bad that he was willing to raid Detroit's roster to do it. I guess it's like dumping Tebow for Peyton Manning, though, if Tebow were a lot better.

Fun fact about Friedman in 28: according to published stats, he led the league in passing yards, passing TDs, rushing yards, and rushing TDs. Obviously the only player to ever do this.

Remember, though, these stats you're quoting are FAR from complete. As I recall, Friedman's rushing stats include only two "complete" games; the bulk of them come from single plays that were mentioned in game articles. ("Friedman hit the line for a yard, then broke away on the next play for a 25-yard gain to the 5-yard line." Stuff like that.) It does seem likely, or at least very possible, that if we had real stats for 1928 he would've led the league, but it's far from conclusive.

The same goes for the statistical comparison of Dunn to Herber.

As for the Giants casting off McBride, he had a poor season in 1928, and took a good bit of the blame for the Giants' decline that year. And I don't think he did much in 1929 after leaving New York, either. He did bounce back with another strong season in 1930, and did well when he returned to the Giants in 1932. That wasn't a trade of him for Friedman, by the way. Friedman left the Giants -- in today's terms, he basically left like a free agent -- and signed with Brooklyn, where McBride was already playing. I guess with Friedman there McBride didn't have as large a role with the Dodgers, and after a couple of games they released him. Then the Giants, who were struggling without Friedman, signed McBride to fill in for their departed star.

So in effect it was pretty much like a trade, but not really.

[JameisLoseston]

I take that into account, but I figure it can only favor the player I'm looking at anyways. If we take stats from 1932 on as basically complete, then Herber only had 2 incompletely recorded years, whereas Dunn might have done a lot more than even what's shown, and what's shown is already comparable to Herber, in quality if not quantity. Same for Friedman; if only 2 of those games are complete for rushing stats, and we have 579 for sure, he may very well have run for close to 1000 yards. Not sure how that can be used against these players. You could say maybe another player caught up to and surpassed him by a bit, but even if he finished 2nd with 8-900 yards that's still hugely impressive.

[Bob Gill]

I take that into account, but I figure it can only favor the player I'm looking at anyways. If we take stats from 1932 on as basically complete, then Herber only had 2 incompletely recorded years, whereas Dunn might have done a lot more than even what's shown, and what's shown is already comparable to Herber, in quality if not quantity.

The quality is the issue. None of the rate stats are correct, because whatever site you're using is apparently lumping complete games in with partial stats. For instance, you listed Dunn's completion percentage as 44.4, but that's not right at all. For all the games in his career with complete stats, he threw 552 passes and completed 226. That's a percentage of 40.9. To get a percentage of 44.4, it looks like somebody has simply added in the stats from "incomplete" games -- but those stats are all warped by the fact that a game article mentions far more complete passes than incomplete ones. For instance, in 1930 Dunn completed 34 of 74 passes in 12 "complete" games, for a percentage of 45.9 -- just about his best season in that regard. But in the one game for which there was no full play-by-play, the game story mentioned only his 9 completions. Obviously those weren't the only passes he threw. But if you ignore that and just credit him with a 9-for-9 game, then for the season his percentage is now 51.8 (43 for 83). If you do that year after year, his percentage increases from 40.9 to 44.4. His average yards per pass goes up similarly -- but both figures are WRONG.

Look, I love the stats that David Neft compiled for the '20s. But you have to understand what they mean, and this site where you've found these numbers obviously does not. So be careful when you use those stats to make comparisons. Better yet, get a copy of The Football Encyclopedia, so you can see the stats in their correct form. That's all I'm saying.

[ChrisBabcock]

Look, I love the stats that David Neft compiled for the '20s. But you have to understand what they mean, and this site where you've found these numbers obviously does not. So be careful when you use those stats to make comparisons. Better yet, get a copy of The Football Encyclopedia, so you can see the stats in their correct form. That's all I'm saying.

I really love jt-sw.com too, only because they give an incomplete snippet of what may have happened statistically pre-1932. Not to mention their incompleteness, there are a bunch of obvious typos on there if you dig deep. I think I remember seeing 300 carry rushing seasons and stuff like that. Obviously not true. Probably is supposed to be 30 and someone hit an extra 0 on the keyboard. Also they give a disclaimer in red at the top of every team page. “Note -- Stats for this season are incomplete at best.”

An example...
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats ... l/1931-brk

[JameisLoseston]

Look, I love the stats that David Neft compiled for the '20s. But you have to understand what they mean, and this site where you've found these numbers obviously does not. So be careful when you use those stats to make comparisons. Better yet, get a copy of The Football Encyclopedia, so you can see the stats in their correct form. That's all I'm saying.

I really love jt-sw.com too, only because they give an incomplete snippet of what may have happened statistically pre-1932. Not to mention their incompleteness, there are a bunch of obvious typos on there if you dig deep. I think I remember seeing 300 carry rushing seasons and stuff like that. Obviously not true. Probably is supposed to be 30 and someone hit an extra 0 on the keyboard. Also they give a disclaimer in red at the top of every team page. “Note -- Stats for this season are incomplete at best.”

An example...
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats ... l/1931-brk

Haha yeah some of the typos are really obvious though, like one guy in 28 or so is given 111 picks in a season (obviously 11), and Tex Hamer had "703" carries in 24 (103). Good thinking on the rate stats, and that's something you really can't know unless you dig super deep into the primary sources, which you all have done a lot better than me. I kinda figured something like this was happening, though, because incompletions are typically not something notable to report.

So guys like Friedman, Dunn, McBride, etc most likely had higher counting stats and lower rate stats than what is provided. Makes sense. But of course, everyone else in those years did too, so for era-adjusted stuff it probably evens out, and it barely matters for rushing purposes because it's far more based on counting stats. Definitely confounds cross-era comparisons like Dunn vs. Herber though, but on the contrary, do we have any independent evidence aside from these numbers that Dunn was a significantly lesser QB?

Oh, here's a fascinating question based on this premise: how many picks do we think Curly Lambeau chucked up in 1924? Is it possible he could have broken Blanda's record?