Norman “Dutch” Speck

[TanksAndSpartans]

Speck was a sandlotter with a long career similar to the Nesser brothers. Born in 1886, he would have been 18 in 1904, the year I read his pro career began. If that's true, does anyone know where he played prior to 1910? If he had played in any of those big Canton/Massillon games, his name should be showing up in the box score and it doesn’t for the games I found. Could he have been playing on 2nd tier pro teams for a while? Thanks for any help.

[JuggernautJ]

I know to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt but they (it) seem(s) to think:
(I found no mention of pre-1910 team affiliation)

(Speck) played for the Professionals-Bulldogs team during their time in the Ohio League from 1911 until 1919, with the only exception being in 1913, when Speck left Canton after three games to join the Elyria Athletics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Speck

This PFRA Coffin Corner article mentions Speck (mostly on page 2):
https://web.archive.org/web/20101126223 ... ay_Two.pdf

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Juggernaut. I saw the Wikipedia article too - they have him playing for Shelby which I had not seen before and they didn't seem to know much about his life. Keith McClellan's book has him starting to play pro football in 1904 and starting at 18 isn't uncommon for sandlotters, so I tend to trust McClellan although the book he wrote focused on 1915-17. McClellan also seemed to know some facts about his life like him being an iron worker, hunting buddy of Jim Thorpe, and father-in-law of Pete Calac. My suspicion is McClellan may have gleaned the 1904 date and other facts from obituaries though and not looked into the specifics and we know obits aren't always accurate and sometimes contradict. When we had the Al Nesser thread, I was surprised to learn some years he appeared not to play, he actually did play just for more obscure teams. So I was wondering if that may be the same here.

[JuggernautJ]

The top page of the PFRA website has a link to old Coffin Corner articles.
The first ones are listed chronologically by year of interest. If one really,really wanted to one could look at each year's article and scan it for Dutch's name. I looked at 1904 and didn't see anything related (but I was just scanning).

How badly do you want to know?

http://www.profootballresearchers.com/pfra-articles.htm

(And thanks for mentioning Dutch. He was unknown to me. And it is always good to see us "sandlotters" treated with a little respect!)

[TanksAndSpartans]

You're welcome, I don't think Speck gets the credit he deserves - I like that he was really a key player on that '22 championship team after already having at least a full decade under his belt. I'll look through the PFRA articles, but those mostly cover the major teams - my theory is he didn't move up in class until '10, so if he played as is claimed before that, its probably under the radar of the season summaries.

[TodMaher]

According to "The Tigers Roar" (and old PFRA publication by Bob Carroll) he played for the Canton Simpson Tigers in 1909. And a quick check of the online newspapers shows him playing for the Simpson Tigers on 1910, Canton in 1912, Canton and Akron Coleman Indians (and possibly Elyria) in 1913.
Note that the Coleman Indians are different team than the Akron Indians (Peggy Parratt's team) in 1913.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Tod. 1909 is at least one year closer to 1904. I remember there was a 1952 obituary mentioned someplace, but now I can't find it.

[rhickok1109]

It looks as if Speck played for a Canton team known as the Shamrocks in 1905.

http://www.footballresearch.com/article ... _1905.html

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great find! Thanks Ralph - I appreciate it. I was wrong about those articles just covering the main teams - Juggernaut was on the right track.