Grammar question

[oldecapecod11]

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Grammar question
Started by JoeZagorski, Feb 13 2014 04:49 PM

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33 replies to this topic

#1 JoeZagorski
PFRA Member
Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:49 PM
Hey Guys,
Please help me out with a possession question. Which is correct:

A) From the Bills 20-yard line.

A) From the Bills' 20-yard line.

Thanks!

#2 RebelX24
Forum Visitors
Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:52 PM
Think it's option B that's correct. For the game in question, that line was on the Bills' half of the field; therefore, they were effectively in possession of it for that time.

#3 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:36 PM
Definitely Option B.

#4 Jeffrey Miller
Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:39 PM
I've heard/seen it used many different ways ... the Patriot 20, the Patriots' 20, the Patriots 20, the New England 20 .... While I agree that the possessive Bills' 20 is correct, I think all of the others are OK to use.

#5 Mark L. Ford
Administrators
Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:21 PM
Technically, both are correct, in the same way that "the Buffalo 20 yard line" and "Buffalo's 20 yard line" would be.

I'd go with B, however, since the first one "looks wrong" at first glance-- the type of stuff that slows a proofreader down. It's likely that A would be "corrected", while it wouldn't happen with B.

#6 oldecapecod 11
PFRA Member
Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:14 AM
The title of the thread is "Grammar question" therefore I believe B is the only correct answer.

"The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law" will support this. It is the "bible," if you will, for anyone who writes for business.
It is usually available in paperback form and probably less than $20.

"A" and other offerings here are surely how we speak. If we wrote as most of us speak, it might take a few minutes to decide that one is trying to say.
This internet is certainly an excellent example of that. Have you ever, ever responded to someone with only the words "laughing out loud?"

#7 Jeremy Crowhurst
PFRA Member
Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:49 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 14 Feb 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:
The title of the thread is "Grammar question" therefore I believe B is the only correct answer.

"The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law" will support this. It is the "bible," if you will, for anyone who writes for business.
It is usually available in paperback form and probably less than $20.

"A" and other offerings here are surely how we speak. If we wrote as most of us speak, it might take a few minutes to decide that one is trying to say.
This internet is certainly an excellent example of that. Have you ever, ever responded to someone with only the words "laughing out loud?"

#8 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member
Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:47 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 14 Feb 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:
The title of the thread is "Grammar question" therefore I believe B is the only correct answer.

"The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law" will support this. It is the "bible," if you will, for anyone who writes for business.
It is usually available in paperback form and probably less than $20.

"A" and other offerings here are surely how we speak. If we wrote as most of us speak, it might take a few minutes to decide that one is trying to say.
This internet is certainly an excellent example of that. Have you ever, ever responded to someone with only the words "laughing out loud?"

Being that I am writing a book on the history of Pro Football, I decided to purchase a copy of this book just to ensure that I get style points like this correct. And by the way, I picked up a 2010 edition of this book on Ebay for two dollars.

#9 ronfitch
Forum Visitors
Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:54 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 14 Feb 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:
The title of the thread is "Grammar question" therefore I believe B is the only correct answer.

"The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law" will support this. It is the "bible," if you will, for anyone who writes for business.
It is usually available in paperback form and probably less than $20.

"A" and other offerings here are surely how we speak. If we wrote as most of us speak, it might take a few minutes to decide that one is trying to say.
This internet is certainly an excellent example of that. Have you ever, ever responded to someone with only the words "laughing out loud?"

I have carried my dog-eared copy of "The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual" from job-to-job, home-to-home, state-to-state for the better part of 30 years. Certainly to most-used book I bought in college and after … likely the only book I bought in college in in my possession.

Though, Matthew Inman's work online is more entertaining to read:

http://theoatmeal.com/tag/grammar

#10 65 toss power trap
Forum Visitors
Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:08 PM
For my site, I follow the AP stylebook, but I established a house style that we refer to the yard lines as "the Bills 20-yard line", with "Bills" being an adjective to identify between two yard lines. Put it another way, "the Buffalo 20-yard line" vs. "Buffalo's 20-yard line" or under the old Pro Bowl format, "the NFC's 20-yard line" vs. "the NFC 20-yard line" -- my ear just accepts the adjectival form better. I rarely use possessives for entities (such as "the FBI agents" over "the FBI's agents").

For the yard lines, both are acceptable, and as long as you stay consistent through the manuscript, it shouldn't be flagged.

#11 Mark L. Ford
Administrators
Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:21 AM
When it comes to any personal name that ends with "s" (Dallas, St. Louis, Halas), I try to avoid possessives at all. I know it's the current usage, but writing "Dallas's 20 yard line" or "Halas's years as coach" just looks wrong. It's even more awkward for names like Moss. I'd rather rephrase than to write "Randy Moss's legacy"

#12 JWL
PFRA Member
Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:55 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 17 Feb 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:
When it comes to any personal name that ends with "s" (Dallas, St. Louis, Halas), I try to avoid possessives at all. I know it's the current usage, but writing "Dallas's 20 yard line" or "Halas's years as coach" just looks wrong. It's even more awkward for names like Moss. I'd rather rephrase than to write "Randy Moss's legacy"

I used to hate in grade school and then in college when an English teacher one year would teach something and the next year's teacher would say the thing was wrong. I believe I ran into this issue once. Citations were a big problem too. Was taught one way, then I do it that way the next year and that year's teacher takes points off.

I now do what I want. I would never say "Moss legacy" unless I was imitating Karl Malone. I say "Moss's legacy" and I would also write it that way.

As for the specific query in this thread, I write "the Bills 20 yard line" with "Bills" being used as an adjective. Whether that is right or wrong, I am not sure. I bet my 11th grade English teacher would say it is wrong, but my 12th grade English teacher would approve it.

#13 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:11 PM
I always go with Halas' legacy ... personal preference.

#14 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:40 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 17 Feb 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:
I always go with Halas' legacy ... personal preference.

That is what I use.

#15 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:51 PM
You're a good man, Ken Crippen.

#16 oldecapecod2
Forum Visitors
Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:59 PM
Jeffrey Miller
Today, 05:11 PM
"I always go with Halas' legacy..."

Ken Crippen
Today, 05:51 PM
"That is what I use"

Which is correct as shown in Example 3.

http://www.grannarun...com/blog/?p=816

(For some reason, "Chicago style" seems to describe a sandwich or pizza.)

#17 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:10 PM
Great, now I'm hungry for Chicago style pizza ...

#18 oldecapecod2
Forum Visitors
Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:13 PM
Jeffrey Miller
Today, 08:10 PM
"Great..."

You might want to read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair before eating anything "Chicago style."

#19 Mark L. Ford
Administrators
Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:26 PM
I understand that the sausage pizza has improved in the last 100 years....

#20 oldecapecod2
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:40 AM
During the Capone era, the Polish sausage used at the turn of that century was replaced with Italian sausage and the Genoa salami created a new menu.
Also, "...the rattle of a Thompson gun..." - a phrase in an old Irish tune - took on a whole new meaning on Valentine's Day in 1929.
Since 1961, the city of Chicago has tried to earn forgiveness by dyeing the Chicago River a lovely shade of Emerald Green. It is said this colored water flows into the Mississippi and is picked up by the Gulf Stream and eventually enters the Irish Sea. Ah, but there might be a bit of the blarney flowin' with the tellin' of that tale. Google the Irish coast next month and see for yourself.

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oldecapecod 11

Grammar question
Started by JoeZagorski, Feb 13 2014 04:49 PM

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33 replies to this topic

#21 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:43 AM
Jeffrey Miller, on 17 Feb 2014 - 7:51 PM, said:
You're a good man, Ken Crippen.

I knew that there was a reason why I liked you.

Now, I want pizza.

#22 ronfitch
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:47 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 17 Feb 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:
I always go with Halas' legacy ... personal preference.

That's AP Style as well as your personal preference.

In the case where it is a plural noun ending in "s" or a proper name ending with an "s", the correct possessive to use is an apostrophe after the "s" in both cases. Such as " … the Bills' 20 yard line …" for the plural noun example and "… George Halas' legacy …" for the proper name example).

Or at least that *was* AP Style back when I was in journalism courses in college.

As for discussion about pizza ...

#23 ronfitch
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:48 PM
Ken Crippen, on 18 Feb 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:
Now, I want pizza.

Hmmm … I may be stealing this line as well for my sig.

#24 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:00 PM
Anybody know of any good pizza joints in Cleveland? That first weekend in June might require a little side trip ...

#25 oldecapecod2
PFRA Member
Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:16 PM
After reading the Ron Fitch post about a "dog-eared" copy and Rupert's good fortune of finding a copy on E-Bay for $2.00, I glanced at this old beat-up paperback of mine and all the Post-It tabs and went on-line.
Lo-and-Behold... there are copies available at extremely reasonable prices. The best I found was:
AbundaTrade.com
498 Wando Park Boulevard - Suite 1000
Mount Pleasant South Carolina 29464-7965
$2.99 - "...Stylebook and Briefing..."
.01 - "...Stylebook and Libel Manual
5.98 - Shipping
and they arrived today. Since they were listed as "used," I did not know what to expect. They look as though they came right from a Barnes & Nobles shelf - immaculate.

Now, as for pizza: folks talk of missing the change of seasons in the South - especially in Florida - but another thing missing is good pizza and seafood. Once you get below the Chesapeake, the seafood just ain't the same - except maybe she-crab bisque in Charleston, SC.

#26 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:17 PM
Well, then maybe we can talk to Denny Lynch about having the next meeting in Buffalo ... best pizza in the nation! Of course I'm biased ....

#27 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:33 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 18 Feb 2014 - 7:17 PM, said:
Well, then maybe we can talk to Denny Lynch about having the next meeting in Buffalo ... best pizza in the nation! Of course I'm biased ....

If we decide not to do Green Bay, 2016 would be the anniversary of the 1946 Buffalo Bisons. Unfortunately, the last member of that team passed away (according to my records) a few weeks ago.

#28 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member
Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:18 PM
Here are two grammar questions I have been trying to resolve:

third-and-five
third-and-5
3rd-and-five
3rd-and-5
third and five
third and 5
3rd and five
3rd and 5

Which one or ones above are correct in the following sentence - "On _________, Joe Montana handed off to Roger Craig, who swept left for two yards." I've gone thru various newspapers and books and found all of the above used at one point or another. I think the hyphens are correct, since that is what I find most of the time, but I don't know for sure.

Related question - where is the point where you do not spell out the number in words and use numbers? You can write, "Otto Graham threw a 34-yard pass to Mac Speedie for a first down." but you would probably not write "Otto Graham threw a thirty-four-yard pass to Mac Speedie for a first down.", but are both acceptable? However, I don't think it is right to say, "John Riggins ran off tackle for 3 yards." instead of "John Riggins ran off tackle for three yards.", but both may be correct. There has to be a point where you just use the numerical number instead of spelling it out, and I think it is the number 11 when you start using the number and not the word.

I've been going thru the AP stylebook and have yet to see these addressed, and these are important points to know when writing about football and would like to get a clarification from the authors in the forum. Thanks for any assistance.

#29 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:44 PM
Rupert Patrick, on 08 Mar 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:
Here are two grammar questions I have been trying to resolve:

third-and-five
third-and-5
3rd-and-five
3rd-and-5
third and five
third and 5
3rd and five
3rd and 5

Which one or ones above are correct in the following sentence - "On _________, Joe Montana handed off to Roger Craig, who swept left for two yards." I've gone thru various newspapers and books and found all of the above used at one point or another. I think the hyphens are correct, since that is what I find most of the time, but I don't know for sure.

Related question - where is the point where you do not spell out the number in words and use numbers? You can write, "Otto Graham threw a 34-yard pass to Mac Speedie for a first down." but you would probably not write "Otto Graham threw a thirty-four-yard pass to Mac Speedie for a first down.", but are both acceptable? However, I don't think it is right to say, "John Riggins ran off tackle for 3 yards." instead of "John Riggins ran off tackle for three yards.", but both may be correct. There has to be a point where you just use the numerical number instead of spelling it out, and I think it is the number 11 when you start using the number and not the word.

I've been going thru the AP stylebook and have yet to see these addressed, and these are important points to know when writing about football and would like to get a clarification from the authors in the forum. Thanks for any assistance.
This is not a question of "right" or "wrong grammar," but of style. I do a lot of online copy editing and I have worked with the MLA, APA, CMS, and AP styles, as well as many styles developed by individual publications and institutions. What is "right" for the Modern Language Association may be "wrong" for the Associated Press and vice versa. I wrote a major sports reference book for Facts on File (The Encyclopedia of North American Sports History) and my editor there developed a style guide specifically for that book. I have done the same with a couple of books I've edited; I develop a style guide as I go along and I give that style guide to the author, along with the final edited copy.

If you are working with a trade publisher, that publisher will undoubtedly have some kind of style guide. If you are self-publishing, the style is up to you; the important thing is to be consistent.

Most (but not all) style guides call for numbers of nine and lower to spelled out, while numbers of 10 and higher should use numerals. But that's not entirely true, either. It wound look odd, for example, to say "second-and-five" in one place and "third-and-17" in another. Personally, I certainly think that hyphens should be used and I would strongly recommend using numerals for the yardage needed. Use "first' or "1st" for the down, as you like, just be consistent.

But don't sweat the small stuff, Rupert (or, as Samuel Beckett once advised a reader, "Don't get headaches in the overtones"). Substance is always more important than style

#30 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:55 PM
Personally, I would go with spelling ":first," "second," "third," etc., for the down, and numerals for the distance. Most importantly, as Ralph said, is be consistent.

#31 ronfitch
Forum Visitors
Posted 08 March 2014 - 02:32 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 08 Mar 2014 - 1:55 PM, said:
Personally, I would go with spelling ":first," "second," "third," etc., for the down, and numerals for the distance. Most importantly, as Ralph said, is be consistent.

I was taught to go with spelling out any number one through twelve and using numerals for 13 an on, unless beginning a sentence with a number - in that case alway spelled out. That is AP - or was years ago, anyway - when O.R. Schmidt tortured us in copy editing class and left me reaching for a red marker everything I am at the market and see the "Ten Items or Less" sign at checkout.

If following that, it would be "first-and-ten" or "third-and-27." And using hyphens seems right as the phrase "first-and-ten" is a shortening of "five down and ten yards to go" as a convenience.

Or so I was taught.

#32 Jeffrey Miller
PFRA Member
Posted 08 March 2014 - 03:24 PM
Ron--yeah, I would normally agree, but spelling out the distance sometimes looks strange. That is the way I did it in "Rockin the Rockpile," but I think I would rather see it with the numerals. Tomorrow I might feel different ...

#33 JWL
PFRA Member
Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:18 PM
I saw "Thomas's" in Sports Illustrated this week.

#34 ronfitch
Forum Visitors
Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:26 PM
I love that a grammar thread is pushing toward a third page here.

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