Where would you rank Belichick amongst all time great coache

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

Brown came into pro football at a time where it was played, coached, and run very poorly and inefficiently. He made all those innovations, but at the same time, the improvements were all ripe for the picking. How does that factor in when comparing him to a coach who is working in a system that is far more complicated, and less ripe for improvement, and has mastered that system far beyond what anyone else has done?

Brown wasn't a cheater, though (as far as we know). The Pats cheated in several ways, like having an extra frequency in Brady's helmet, stealing the other team's audibles, and swiping the other teams' play sheets (not to mention filming the other team in unauthorized areas).

In addition, they have benefited from the rules changes over the years that seem to de-emphasize athleticism and protect immobile QB's (namely a guy wearing #12).

Look up The Asterisk by Vern Nicholson on E-Bay or Amazon (you can also preview it on Google Books). He goes into a lot of these issues.

I am familiar with Vern. There's a reason his book is self-published.

[Rupert Patrick]

Brown came into pro football at a time where it was played, coached, and run very poorly and inefficiently. He made all those innovations, but at the same time, the improvements were all ripe for the picking. How does that factor in when comparing him to a coach who is working in a system that is far more complicated, and less ripe for improvement, and has mastered that system far beyond what anyone else has done?

Brown wasn't a cheater, though (as far as we know). The Pats cheated in several ways, like having an extra frequency in Brady's helmet, stealing the other team's audibles, and swiping the other teams' play sheets (not to mention filming the other team in unauthorized areas).

In addition, they have benefited from the rules changes over the years that seem to de-emphasize athleticism and protect immobile QB's (namely a guy wearing #12).

Look up The Asterisk by Vern Nicholson on E-Bay or Amazon (you can also preview it on Google Books). He goes into a lot of these issues.

I am familiar with Vern. There's a reason his book is self-published.

Is he that guy who was here a few years back who truly believed that all the Super Bowls are fixed, and when he was banned from the forum, he put up a website where he had cut and pasted all of our posts on the topic?

[rhickok1109]

Is he that guy who was here a few years back who truly believed that all the Super Bowls are fixed, and when he was banned from the forum, he put up a website where he had cut and pasted all of our posts on the topic?

I'm pretty sure it's a different guy, but the same kind of nut. In fact, even nuttier, if you can believe that.

[lastcat3]

To be honest I too at times wonder if they purposely have refs throw flags at the right times in order to try to keep games competitive. So why I don't necessarily think they are fixed I do think they at times do things to help keep eyeballs from tuning out.

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

Is he that guy who was here a few years back who truly believed that all the Super Bowls are fixed, and when he was banned from the forum, he put up a website where he had cut and pasted all of our posts on the topic?

I'm pretty sure it's a different guy, but the same kind of nut. In fact, even nuttier, if you can believe that.

A part of his first chapter says something like, "Lots of people are saying the NFL changed their rules so that white athletes can compete with black athletes. I'm not going to talk about that here." WTF?

[rhickok1109]

A lot of people say that Abraham Lincoln was actually assassinated by his wife, but I don't wanna discuss that.

[Reaser]

In fact, even nuttier, if you can believe that.

That's hard to believe.

A part of his first chapter says something like, "Lots of people are saying the NFL changed their rules so that white athletes can compete with black athletes. I'm not going to talk about that here."

Nevermind.

[74_75_78_79_]

Reviving a thread in which the last post made was three days after the Pats won their very last Lombardi - over the Rams in SBLIII, 13-3.

Any sense, or possible reality, that the 'luster' of Belichick's legacy has significantly peeled off after these past three seasons w/out Brady (and may even more-so with another subpar season along with already being on the hot-seat) - is that fair? Two decades of more-than-Greatness and now, suddenly, this?

You got Gibbs and Tuna who won Super Bowls with three and two different non-HOF quarterbacks respectively. But other than that, what All-Time-Great HC didn't have a Hall of Fame QB?

It's been just three seasons since; and still (remember) a playoff berth in the middle. And, of course, his critics will bring Cleveland back up fair or not.

What are your updated thoughts?

[Brian wolf]

Having a crazy sense of humor, it would be delightful if Kraft were to get nominated as a contributor, fire Belichick after another so-so season and anger the voters enough in Feb, to lose out on election. Its doubtful though; even if the Patriots faltered again, Belichick still might have the chance to pass Shula. Depends on whether receivers other than Shuster and Henry can develop for Jones. Dalvin Cook could be dynamic for this team ...

[Brian wolf]

Getting back to your question 74_75_78_79 ... Schott and Knox were also excellent HCs that never had HOF QBs ... Kosar and Krieg could play but needed a total team around them. These two coaches won wherever they went and its a shame an assistant coach like Alex Gibbs--though great--makes the semifinals list over Chuck Knox.

Blanton Collier and Jim Lee Howell never had HOF QBs either--though Conerly was close--yet both coaches won world championships with championship game losses to great coaches like Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Bud Grant and Weeb Ewbank. Blowout losses in two of those games has hurt Collier, but it never stopped Grant, Levy or possibly Reeves from making the HOF.

I am convinced thats why Allen made the HOF, a consistent winner and defensive guru, who never had a HOF starting QB--Jurgensen was either hurt or on the bench--yet never went to as many championship games as the coaches I mentioned above.