Manning Brady

[sluggermatt15]

Brady never had a defense like Manning had in his last game

If they go with 4 QBs on the 100 year team, who does Brady knock off? Baugh? Graham? Unitas? Montana? I'd guess Baugh - which is consistent with who John mentioned. I wouldn't think Manning is in that discussion, but I don't know.

I disagree. The defenses New England put on the field in 2001, 2003 and 2004 were pretty darn good. They were Top 6 in points allowed in each of those seasons and recorded at least 40 sacks per campaign.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I was only referring to the Super Bowl. Miller and Ware were pretty dominant in a pretty big game. My feeling watching the game was that Carolina just couldn't move the ball even though their defense kept getting it back for them.

[Bryan]

Using a coding system I developed for letter grading teams on their different aspects of play, I have found 14 occasions when a team went from the top fifth in the league in points scored one season to the bottom fifth in the league in points scored the following season. Most were the famous collapse teams, the 1963-64 Giants (loss of YA Tittle), 1977-78 Colts (loss of Bert Jones and Lydell Mitchell), 1993-94 Oilers (loss of Warren Moon), along with the 2009-10 Vikings (Favre's disastrous final season) and 2014-15 Cowboys (loss of Romo and DeMarco Murray), and the 2010-11 Colts were of course on the list also. But also on the list of the biggest offensive point collapses, is the 1955-56 Cleveland Browns, whom people forget because they finished 5-7 after Graham retired. Other teams on the list 1949-50 49ers (kind of an asterisk on this one), 1965-66 Bears, 1966-67 Bills, 1984-85 Cardinals, 1988-89 Jets, 1995-96 Cowboys and 2012-13 Giants. Many of the great collapses were due to losing a great QB.

I think they missed your cutoff because they were 7th in scoring offense out of 26 teams, but the 1973 Falcons went from 7th to 26th (last) in 1974 with essentially the same players.

[Bryan]

I have the 50 year team (QB) as Unitas, Baugh, and Van Brocklin (I got it from a message board - oddly I'm not able to find the team on more official sites). My guess is the AAFC thing may have mattered more then than it did 25 years later since Graham wasn't included. I didn't catch the AAFC issue either until a poster brought it up earlier.

I think Graham is the most 'volatile' QB over the years in terms of these best ever lists. I love Norm Van Brocklin, but there is no way he should be above Graham on that 50-year team. I've seen lists with Graham at #1, I've seen top 10 lists with Graham excluded. I remember the first NFL Films Greatest QBs video had long segments on Bradshaw, Namath & Tittle, named Unitas as the best ever, and gave only passing mention to Otto Graham (noting he never called his own plays). IIRC, I remember reading a later Steve Sabol list that had Otto Graham as his choice for best QB ever. Weird.

My personal opinion is to ignore all the tangential/hypothetical stuff, which includes the Colts doing poorly with Manning hurt, what if Marino were on the 80's Niners, etc. I just try to look at performance and accomplishments. I don't care if Brady had Belichick his whole career or if Paul Brown called Otto Graham's plays. I think Brady is greatest QB because of his longevity, his winning, and because he has played in an era where a QB passes the ball far more often than in the past (albeit with less difficulty).

[rhickok1109]

I'm somewhat bemused by the claims that Brady is a system quarter, with the implication that Manning was not.

Which of the two had the same offensive coordinator for his first 13 seasons in the NFL? I'll give you a hint--it wasn't Brady.

In fact, Manning himself perceived Tom Moore as being so important that both times the Colts changed head coaches--from Jim Mora to Tony Dungy in 2002 and from Dungy to Jim Caldwell in 2009--he insisted that Moore had to be retained as OC. (Moore's official title was "senior offensive coordinator" in 2009 and "Senior offensive assistant & offensive consultant" in 2010, but there's no question that he ran the offense during those two seasons.)

How many times has a team kept its OC when changing head coaches?

Manning also benefited from greater continuity among his wide receivers. During his entire time with the Colts, either Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne was his leading receiver. He had Harrison from 1998 through 2008 and he had Wayne from 2001 through 2010.

By contrast, Brady has had three different OCs during his career: Charlie Weis, Josh McDaniels, and Bill O'Brien. And he's had nine different leading receivers: Troy Brown 2001-2002; Deion Branch 2003, 2005; David Givens 2004; Reche Caldwell 2006; Randy Moss 2007; Wes Welker 2008-2012; Julian Edelman 2013, 2016; Gronkowski 2014-15, 2017; and James White so far in 2018. That group includes traditional wideouts, slot receivers, a tight end, and a running back.

So tell me again...which one is the "system quarterback"?

[conace21]

Brady had one head coach and one owner his entire career.
Manning had five head coaches in his career and went to the Super Bowl with four of them.
The fact that Tom Moore was retained only reinforces the fact that Manning has significantly more power in the organization.
Manning may have been a system QB, but it was Manning's system.

[JohnH19]

I still have Rodgers lumped in the second tier with Brees, Favre, Marino, Elway, Staubach, Tarkenton, Jurgensen, Starr, Tittle and Luckman.

John, I find that 2nd tier really interesting. Every time I watch 50s highlights of the 49ers, I feel like Tittle is alternating with Frankie Albert. I never researched it, just seemed odd that one of the all-time greats was alternating with a QB not many remember. In the case of Waterfield/Van Brocklin, both were HOFers. Speaking of Van Brocklin, I think I've seen him and Steve Young sometimes show up in 2nd tier.

I did think of Steve Young after I posted. He certainly belongs in the second tier.

Tittle would not be on the list if not for his years with the Giants. He was absolutely lights out from 1961 to 1963, especially in the latter two seasons. He also won one of the MVP/player of the year awards with the 49ers in 1957.

Jurgy made my list purely on his arm talent. He may still be the best pure passer in history.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks John.

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

Brady had one head coach and one owner his entire career.
Manning had five head coaches in his career and went to the Super Bowl with four of them.
The fact that Tom Moore was retained only reinforces the fact that Manning has significantly more power in the organization.
Manning may have been a system QB, but it was Manning's system.

Yes. Because that's how it works in the NFL. The rookie QB comes in, and tells the guy who's been a coach in the NFL for 21 years, who has two rings from his days coaching with the Steelers, "Hey, Coach. I know you've been an offensive co-ordinator since 1983, but I'm going to tell you how we're going to play offense."

I think you should go back to the argument where you take two Hall of Fame QBs, reduce their 17+ years of play each to one line, one statistic that you yourself acknowledge has other explanations. That at least makes some sense.

Oh, and John Kitna - Lions went from 7 wins to 0 wins after he got injured. Guess he's better than Brady too. Houston Texans... from 9 wins to 4 wins after they moved on from Brock Osweiler. Bet that's a decision they'd do over!

[Rupert Patrick]

Using a coding system I developed for letter grading teams on their different aspects of play, I have found 14 occasions when a team went from the top fifth in the league in points scored one season to the bottom fifth in the league in points scored the following season. Most were the famous collapse teams, the 1963-64 Giants (loss of YA Tittle), 1977-78 Colts (loss of Bert Jones and Lydell Mitchell), 1993-94 Oilers (loss of Warren Moon), along with the 2009-10 Vikings (Favre's disastrous final season) and 2014-15 Cowboys (loss of Romo and DeMarco Murray), and the 2010-11 Colts were of course on the list also. But also on the list of the biggest offensive point collapses, is the 1955-56 Cleveland Browns, whom people forget because they finished 5-7 after Graham retired. Other teams on the list 1949-50 49ers (kind of an asterisk on this one), 1965-66 Bears, 1966-67 Bills, 1984-85 Cardinals, 1988-89 Jets, 1995-96 Cowboys and 2012-13 Giants. Many of the great collapses were due to losing a great QB.

I think they missed your cutoff because they were 7th in scoring offense out of 26 teams, but the 1973 Falcons went from 7th to 26th (last) in 1974 with essentially the same players.

In the Coding system, I came up with 12 factors, six for offense and six for defense - Points Scored/Allowed, Rushing, Passing, Total Yards per Play, Total Yards per Point, and Kicking. The categories are the same for offense and defense. (The Rushing and Passing categories are actually four different categories and the combined score of the four categories is used to determine the final score.)

It is not unlike school grading - A (top 20 percent), B (top 20-40 percent), C (top 40-60 percent), D (top 60-80 percent) and E (bottom 20 percent).

In a 26 team league, the top five teams get an A, the next five get a B, the middle 6 get a C, the next 5 get a D and the bottom five get an E.

For the 1973-74 Falcons, their points scored coding would be a BE, meaning a B in 1973 and an E in 1974. I was looking at AE and EA (worst to best and best to worst) situations.

I had been kicking around the idea of Coding for a couple decades, and finally put the idea into a spreadsheet, and while it is in it's early stages, I think there are numerous applications for it. For one thing, you can use it to identify historically similar teams, or similar offenses or defenses.

I am looking for input on it. Do I need to have Punting, and how do I measure punters? What about punt/kickoff returners? I don't want to wind up with 68 different codes for each team but it may need some extra categories. Anybody who is interested in it can PM me and give an email address and I can send the paper I wrote along with the spreadsheet with data and the codes for each team.